Paul Gogarty (Dublin Mid West, Green Party)

I do not mind fair comment and fair debate. The issue of special needs and autism is on the work programme of the Joint Committee on Education and Skills. This will provide an opportunity to look at ABA and to revisit the rules on which the current Government policy on autism spectrum disorders is based. There has never been a proper Irish study of the best methods. All the research is imported. ABA expertise is also imported but we need to find the best fit for Ireland. There are tutors who are not qualified primary teachers but are qualified in ABA. Because they do not have primary teaching qualifications they cannot proceed. They could only be employed as glorified special needs assistants (SNAs). I am not disparaging SNAs but these people's qualifications were greater than what would be required to be an SNA. That is how some of them are operating in ABA schools at present. The one size fits all policy is not working.

This Bill would help the Department if it decided to enable ABA tutors to be employed as teachers. This exception would help ABA schools and would help the Department to match the needs of parents and children to the departmental framework. I do not wish to use the term "departmental lock" although people may feel they are being locked in. That is a digression in terms of the legislation but it is an important one because it gives ABA teachers a chance to get primary teaching qualifications over a reasonable period and to be paid adequately for their skill set. For many children with autism spectrum disorders ABA works. I thank Deputy Morgan for his valuable input. I will try to raise that point with the joint committee.

The legislation formalises the current involvement of VECs at primary level and enables other VEC schools to come into the primary system. Other speakers have referred to the decoupling of certain religious schools in the Dublin Archdiocese, which was welcomed by everyone at the time. I know there is no pressure on the Catholic Church to divest specific schools but this will be done on the basis of demographics and the needs of particular areas. I welcome that progress.

There is not much to say if one welcomes the idea of VEC involvement at primary level, except to say one welcomes it. Deputy Joan Burton spoke about the need for adequate resourcing and of the situation in her constituency, which is where the model was rolled out.

I have a concern about how the roll-out of the VEC model relates to Educate Together schools. Educate Together have been campaigning to become a patron at second level. In my constituency there is an attempt by the Minister to get the VEC and Educate Together to look at the existing site in Clonburris. There are two sites in Clonburris but because the growth of Adamstown has slowed there is no longer a need to open schools on both sites. There will be only one site. There is, clearly, a demand for an Educate Together second level school and for a school to meet the needs of children leaving Archbishop Ryan senior national school in south Lucan. The model the Minister put in place provides an opportunity for the VEC and Educate Together to work together. I hope this is a template for the future, notwithstanding the demand and need for a solely Educate Together second level school.

There is a fear among the Educate Together fraternity - it may be misguided, paranoid or genuine - that the roll-out of VEC schools at primary level may call a halt to the roll-out of Educate Together primary schools. Educate Together has had to drag itself up by its boot straps and set up schools that were very parent driven. Theirs is a different form of democracy from the VEC model. Both are equally valid but they usually get into spats with one another as to which is more democratic, which is a wasted debate. However, there is a fear in Educate Together that they are looked down upon by the VECs and, possibly, by certain members of the education fraternity and that their model is seen as no different from the VEC model at second level. There are significant differences between Educate Together and VEC schools. That is why I hope the partnership works out. The fear at primary level is that as VEC schools are rolled out, the opportunities to establish parent driven Educate Together schools will dwindle. If this is part of an ingenious long-term plan to secularise Irish education, we could be waiting until 2116 until this aim is achieved. Perhaps we should be up-front about religion in our schools. I note Deputy Olivia Mitchell is nodding her head in agreement with some of my comments.

It would be difficult to know whether a majority would vote against religion in schools were a referendum held tomorrow. It is certainly the case that a large number of people want to maintain religious instruction, and this right is protected under the Constitution. However, a growing number does not want anything to do with religion or is from a minority faith. Multi-denominational education is important in this regard.

Deputy Quinn has on many occasions raised the issue of atheists, agnostics and those who do not have any religious affiliation. These individuals also have a right to educate their children in an ethos that respects their points of view. It could be argued that atheism is a religious belief system in its own right. At some point in the future we will have to decide whether belief systems should be an intrinsic part of our education system.

A referendum, whether held tomorrow or in five years' time, would be divisive and could allow fundamentalist views to be expressed forthrightly. It is not the kind of subject that leads to violence on the streets but it certainly would alienate a significant number of people. It would not be constructive if hurtful comments were made.

Like it or not, the present model encourages choice and diversity. The introduction of VEC patronage is a further step on the long journey of ensuring all parents have a choice. Where population growth creates demands for new schools, the new patrons will be VECs and people who desire a traditional Catholic education for their children may not be satisfied. The VECs have to be more proactive than simply rescuing children who cannot get a place. Those involved in education on the church side see space for more Catholic schools in various areas.

My personal, as opposed to political, view is that perhaps we should grab the bull by the horns and phase out religious instruction. While a school may continue to celebrate its Catholic or multi-denominational ethos, religious instruction would be given outside school hours. This would reduce the pressure on students to differentiate amongst themselves There may not be conscious discrimination but feelings of differentiation can also be dangerous. The multi-denominational model, however, celebrates all faiths and none.

The Bill limits itself to VECs and the issue of unqualified teachers. However, the provisions for boards of management under the Education Acts also need to be addressed. I am sure I am like other Members in that I have received information on boards of management which took decisions in what was perceived as an undemocratic manner. Parents can feel isolated because they do not get enough training or are ganged up on by certain individuals. Instead of allowing the patron to wield the power on boards, they should be community based, with stronger parental and staff input. The days of a bishop dictating the wishes of parents should be long gone.

Notwithstanding the despicable cases of abuse, we should be grateful to the Catholic Church for its contribution to education over the years. Were it to divest itself of all its institutions tomorrow at a fair price for the work put in by religious orders, this economy would be doubly bankrupt. We cannot force the church out of education nor should we try to do so but boards of management should be restructured to allow for more democratic involvement. Under the VEC model, county councillors and parents' groups are appointed to boards of management, which is a form of democracy, but they are often overruled by principals or patrons. Parents do not have enough say in what happens in their children's schools. In the longer term, we need root and branch reform of our education law, particularly in regard to boards of management.

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