Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)

-----on this Bill and in relation to which it held a question and answer session which, unfortunately, I could not attend. The Oireachtas is providing us with excellent services. Much of what I am saying comes from that service although I do not state it as the author of everything I say here.

In 2002, approximately 221,000, or 5.7%, of our population were non-Irish, namely, people born outside the State. In 2007, this had grown to more than 417,000 so that one in every ten people in our population was not born in Ireland. In 2006, some 3.4% of our population were of mixed background, namely, black or black-Irish or Asian or Asian-Irish. Our population is diversifying. An analysis of the change in religious diversity shows that while 92% of Irish people declared themselves, in terms of religion, to be Roman Catholic, 51% of non-Irish people were also Roman Catholic, suggesting a real need for change. Some 2.8% of Irish people and 16.3% of non-Irish people stated they were of no religion. There has been significant changes in our population and thus many schools in different areas have needs which must be met in terms of how students are taught and what type of school they attend, be it denominational, multi-denominational, non-denominational and so on. I acknowledge that this legislation is being introduced in an effort to meet the changing needs of Ireland. I commend and support the new role proposed for the Vocational Education Committees, VECs, which themselves are changing and in respect of which further changes are required. I believe there are other services which can and should be provided by the VECs.

The Roman Catholic Church, in the person of Archbishop Diarmuid Martin, has acknowledged that it cannot continue to run 92% of schools when some 87% of the population are Roman Catholics. There is a need for change and consultation. A criticism we have of this Bill is the lack of open debate regarding patronage of our schools. So far, discussions between the Department and, in particular, the Catholic Church, have been private. We would like that debate to be opened out into the public domain. One way of doing so is through the Oireachtas, in particular the Joint Committee on Education and Skills which could, prior to the taking of Committee Stage of this Bill invite in parents, representatives of the different churches and none and other interested parties to tease out where we want to go in terms of patronage. While I acknowledge and support the changes being made, I do not believe there has been sufficient or adequate proper public debate on all of these issues. There must be new choices for parents and students and discussions in regard to where the new schools of which the Minister spoke will be located. It appears from the facts we have received that the new schools are likely, initially at least, to become VEC primary schools in city and urban areas as these are the areas wherein there has been significant growth. That is also where a greater mix exists.

The relevant research shows that, in the context of diversity, something of the order of 40% of schools do not have any new intake. The position in schools in Dublin 15, where there have been significant changes, is different. These schools have been obliged to take in children of different nationalities who speak various languages. Many of these children do not have English as a first language. These are multicultural schools and they are obliged to deal with people of all religions and none.

In the context of the change that is going to come, using the VECs is a very good idea. I welcome the fact that the Bill bestows on the latter the power to establish and run primary schools should they so wish. The VECs may also take over the running of new schools. I presume this will occur in circumstances where the voluntary relinquishment of the patronage of a primary occurs. It will be at this point that the Minister's power to issue a direction will come into play. We must recognise that change is taking place. The Bill moves forward the agenda for such change.

As part of the Bills digest pack relating to this Bill, the Oireachtas Library and Research Service has included statistics relating to a survey carried out by the Irish Catholic Bishops Conference. In that survey, people were asked to identify the type of school, out of the various models on offer, they would choose for their children. Some 48% indicated they would send their children to schools managed by religious denominations, 37% stated they would prefer schools in which common religious frameworks apply, 10% indicated they would choose schools not under the management of religious denominations and 5% stated they would seek schools with altogether different structures in place. In the context of a public debate on patronage choices, it would be better if the Tánaiste rather than schools wrote to parents and sought their views. Such action would inform the debate and would help to facilitate both the change and choice people are seeking.

In many instances, VEC-run schools were viewed as being "second best" in the past. Both I and my father worked in such schools and I am, therefore, well versed in their operation. There was a time when these schools were known colloquially as "techs". Students left such schools when they had sat the equivalent of the junior certificate and obtained their trade certificates. They then sought work in their chosen trades or whatever. It was only in later years that these techs developed into fully-fledged and excellent schools which competed on a level playing field with other schools.

It is important that the new VEC primary schools envisaged under the Bill should not all be established in areas where large immigrant populations exist or where certain economic indicators apply. They should not merely become schools for ethnic minorities or for those who live in areas of high unemployment. There should be no cherry-picking in respect of primary schools. I am sure that neither the Tánaiste nor her Department want this to happen. However, we must ensure that it does not come to pass.

A broader vision is required in respect of the choice that exists in the context of VEC primary schools. As the Tánaiste is aware, there is not merely one type of VEC school. One of the issues that arises is that in the event of a new national school being established, the VEC could share the patronage with a denomination. In addition, schools could be multi-denominational and so on. There are many permutations and combinations which can and will arise. I reiterate the point made by some commentators that these schools should not become places of education which do not enjoy universal support among all the parents in the areas in which they will be located.

My family has always supported the principle that one's children should attend the nearest national school. I hope that this will happen. However, I accept that this contradicts everything I have just said with regard to diversity. My personal preference for these schools would be that they should be multi-denominational but I accept that other people have different preferences. VEC schools must operate on a level playing field with all other schools. In other words, they must access to the same resources, they must be as professionally run and the same rules relating to pupil intake must apply to them.

There must be a broader role for VECs. Among the major criticisms levelled at VECs is that they are inefficient, overly bureaucratic and too costly. There are many different views in respect of VECs. Having served on one for over 25 years, I agree with some of the criticisms that are made.

There is a need for a new departure in the area of education. Under this, a new type of VEC or the system that exists could offer support on a voluntary basis. In other words, denominational-non-VEC schools could consider or opt for the provision of HR support. One of the major issues that arises for small primary schools in the context of HR problems is where to find assistance. I am aware that Monaghan VEC supplies IT services to primary schools in its area. Issues arise in the context of building maintenance, financial expertise, etc., and VECs could provide support services in respect of these. This would be a good development because the management in schools would not be obliged to be concerned with regard to issues such as those to which I refer. If the model I have outlined comes into play, it could give rise to significant additional benefits and bring about the development of new synergies and ideas that would facilitate the change that is required.

I have a number of real criticisms in respect of the Bill and I intend to be vocal about them. I am aware that the teacher unions and those who are unemployed will be equally vocal. Having registered and qualified, the latter are going to want to be able to stand shoulder to shoulder with everyone else.

There have been many success stories in the context of broadening diversity at primary level in recent years. This has been achieved through the gaelscoileanna and the Educate Together movement. VEC schools will have a role to play in this regard in the future. However, there is no timeline, no plan, no engagement with parents and no real commitment to bring about change in the process put in place by the Tánaiste. It is difficult to understand the Department and the Tánaiste are taking in the context of catering for increased diversity. Is there a masterplan which has been hidden from public view or is a piecemeal approach - as evidenced by this Bill - being taken?

If the Tánaiste and her Department are keen to confront the issue of the direction we are taking, why can they not take on the views of all stakeholders and engage in an open and public debate. In light of the increase in the school-going population that is expected to occur in the coming years and the changing nature of modern Ireland, there is surely a need to engage in a discussion on the direction we are taking and on how we want our schools to be run. This matter is far too important to be ignored.

My predecessor as education and skills spokesperson, Deputy Brian Hayes, and the Fine Gael Party have long been calling for a national forum on education to bring this matter into the public eye in order to give all stakeholders, particularly parents, an opportunity to indicate what they are seeking and who they want to run their children's schools. Such a forum must be established. Before this happens, however, the Tánaiste should write to every parent who has or will soon have a school-going child and ask them what they want. This is a complex issue but the debate in respect of it is extremely valuable in nature. The debate to which I refer is really focused on our country and the direction it is taking in light of the changes that have occurred.

I look forward to the Committee Stage debate on the Bill. I do not believe it will be confrontational in political terms.

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