Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)

When the Minister comes to that debate I hope he will bring his figures and his calculators. I am not anti-ideology. I am interested in political idealism and ideology but there is nothing worse than having an ideology and ignoring the numbers. Whatever ideological or philosophical position one has must make economic sense. The numbers must add up. Some of what the Minister is doing on the renewable side makes a great deal of sense. Some of it really does not. It could cost us a fortune while gaining nothing for the public other than higher energy prices and pylons on people's property. We need to think very seriously about that.

We must also address the profits of semi-State companies. I have nothing against companies making profits but the ESB, in the current climate when other companies are struggling, does not need to make a profit of €500 million a year or Bord Gáis to make a profit of €200 million a year. The public object to energy price increases because of the huge profits made by energy companies while everyone else is being squeezed. The Government could have taken from their profits, as it has done for the big energy users. The Government took the profits away from the companies to subsidise the big energy users but would not take the profits away from those companies to defer the PSO levy. That shows how the Green Party have been taken over by the Fianna Fáil big business agenda against the interests of small business and ordinary people. Those profits are not justified. The Minister should give a direction to the Energy Regulator that if companies are making profits of that size they are clearly not being put under enough pressure to reduce either their costs or their profits.

There are ways to reduce energy prices if the Minister wanted to. I do not think he does want to, because if energy prices do not keep rising many of his green gambles will not pay off.

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