John Moloney (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)

We are speaking of people specifically trained in mental health care similar to those recruited to deal with people returned under the Mental Health Act 2001. That is the intention of this legislation. The Deputy also raised fundamental questions in regard to the safety of the person and the public. While I will have another opportunity to address this issue on Committee Stage, I take this opportunity to confirm to the House that this Bill seeks to, on the one hand, ensure people who no longer need to be detained in the Central Mental Hospital are returned to the community and, on the other hand, that they and the public are protected. We must ensure people live up to the conditions of their release from the Central Mental Hospital to the community. I will return to the Deputy on this point later.

Deputies Shatter, Mitchell and O'Brien referred to the Central Mental Hospital. I take on board Deputy Mitchell's remarks in regard to the current economic climate. Under the multi-annual capital programme we are allowed to sell off properties to the value of €50 million. However, we have this year raised only €10 million through the sale of property due to decline. I acknowledge that Thornton Hall was the Government's preferred location for the new prison. However, this is no longer the case. I put the case for the withdrawal from the Thornton Hall project to Cabinet and did not announce a proposed relocation because advice to me at the time was that this cannot be done until we have the capital commitment to meet it. I am not very proficient in financial matters. I will engage with the director of estates, Mr. Brian Gilroy, during October-November on public private partnerships proposals in this regard. I am led to believe this can be done. I acknowledge that there are different types of public private partnerships but as I understand this is a vehicle we can use.

I cannot yet say what will happen to the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum. I do not make these points to pretend everything in mental health is being addressed because as Deputy Neville will I am sure remind me that we have a huge distance to go. However, we have been able to address some of the issues through the €10 million we have secured, including the construction of the new psychiatric hospital in Letterkenny which will ensure no further referrals to the old hospital there. The contracts for work on the Clonmel project have been signed and work on that site is progressing. I am trying to follow the inspectors' reports on the conditions in mental hospitals. Three months ago, I turned the sod for the building of a 100 bed unit to replace St. Loman's Hospital Mullingar. I understand this is not what one would call fast forward movement but it is at least an attempt to deal with the worst hospitals as identified in the inspectors' reports.

I wish to return to the specific question relating to the Central Mental Hospital. I am led to understand that of all of the properties in which mental health services are provided, that in Dundrum is considered one of the best locations in respect of which maximum funding might be procured. Securing such funding will clearly be the intention as we prepare the capital programme for next year. There is little point in bringing Dundrum on to the market until we can maximise the value in this regard.

There is no point in creating false hopes. In that context, I regret to say that the new central mental hospital will depend on funding secured under PPP arrangements. I will not be in a position to say when that will happen until later in the year. A certain area has been touted in the media as being the location for the new facility. I met political and other representatives from that area and I assured them that, should the area be selected, they will be informed in advance of any public announcement. I accept that this answer is probably not to the Deputy's liking. However, the deadline for deciding how the project will be funded is either November or December. I will inform the House of the position in this regard as soon as possible.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch raised an extremely important issue. It is obvious that everyone who contributed to this debate wants a better quality of life for those who suffer from mental illness. The Bill is designed to ensure that people who have been committed to the Central Mental Hospital will be released into the community as quickly as possible. It has been suggested that these individuals should be released into centres of population away from the hospital. That is an extremely important point.

I was beginning to think that I had lost the plot. I refer, in that context, to the supplement and the editorial which appeared in The Irish Times today. When I entered the Department two years ago, I felt it important that I should set out my policy position and my hopes. I did this so that we might drive forward a programme to deal with the closure of mental hospitals. This can be achieved. I also put forward the need for a director of mental health services. I felt that was extremely important to deal with the stigma relating to mental health. I reached a conclusion in respect of this matter, but not because I have a professional background in it. I have no such background. From many years as a public representative, I have been aware of the major concerns people harbour regarding loved ones or relatives who will not seek support in case it might affect their career prospects, relationships or whatever. In that context, I set about launching the See Change initiative. I did not do so lightly.

I certainly had notions in respect of this matter but I invited people I respect to assist with the initiative. I often said to Deputy Neville - I am sure he will confirm this - that it was important to highlight the area of mental health. I did not try to do this on my own. I invited people from all walks of life who, I believed, had a contribution to make and who were prepared to give of their time on the first Wednesday of each month to become involved. Those individuals confirmed to me that the stigma attaching to mental health was a major issue. That was what encouraged me to launch the campaign and to facilitate it I selected 27 centres throughout the country to which people would be invited to discuss the issue of mental health.

On each occasion on which I discuss mental health in public, I make the point that the resources available in respect of this area are not adequate. I am a Fianna Fáil Deputy and I am not trying to pretend that I am not a member of the Government. I wish to make that clear, particularly in circumstances where people might be of the opinion that we are trying to pretend that everything is grand and that the only issue which arises is that relating to stigma. It is, however, important that we deal with that stigma. To date, meetings relating to the See Change initiative have been held in Ennis, Limerick, Tipperary and, last night, in Donegal.

I am somewhat concerned with regard to the editorial which appeared in today's edition of The Irish Times and which refers to what is being done as an extraordinarily cynical exercise on the part of the Government. It is obvious that this is a reference to me because I am responsible for driving the campaign. I was glad to realise, as I listened to Members contributions, that the stigma attached to mental health is not an issue I merely dreamt up. This is a real issue.

Regardless of whatever level of capital funding we can secure, unless people are prepared to present and seek support, there is very little which can be done for them. I do not wish anyone to be of the view that I am presenting myself as the Mother Teresa of mental health or depression. That is not the impression I wish to give. However, I always knew I would front a campaign in this area. I had occasion to be referred to a psychiatrist in the Mater Hospital some years ago and I felt it was important to publicise that fact if only to try to show people that there is no big deal when it comes to matters of this nature and that individuals can seek support and recover.

I am glad Members have confirmed that the stigma attaching to mental health is an issue because I had begun to have doubts. I had also begun to wonder whether it was right to engage in a national campaign, particularly if such a campaign was seen as a cynical exercise. I do not believe the latter to be the case. The See Change initiative is a fundamental part of the reform programme we are pursuing. The meetings that have been held to date have been arranged under the auspices of the various county forums, which acknowledge that there is a need for this issue to be addressed.

Deputy Shatter referred to the safety of communities where persons are conditionally discharged. I again draw attention to the fact that the review board must have regard to the public interest. The authority being transferred to it brings its own level of responsibility. In that context, the board must have regard to the public interest when deciding if a person can be discharged. The board must also be satisfied that appropriate supervision arrangements are in place in respect of the person. The Bill provides that a person who is in breach of the conditions of his or her discharge and who is a danger to himself or herself or others can be returned to the Central Mental Hospital. I appreciate the Deputy's point in respect of this matter and I am using this debate to expand on the position. The Bill also states that the Garda can be requested to assist in returning someone to the Central Mental Hospital.

The Bill is an attempt, prior to bringing the conclusion of the major review, to allow people to be discharged conditionally. I accept the Deputy's point that this should have been dealt with in the initial legislation. The Bill is, therefore, an attempt to do that and to ensure that people can be discharged from the Central Mental Hospital, under supervised conditions to create additional space there. I accept Deputy Mitchell's point regarding the conditions at the hospital. It is not enough for me to state that I have visited the facility and have first-hand knowledge of those facilities. That is why there is a commitment to progress matters in this regard.

The Bill is an important example of the necessity to ensure that the criminal justice system sets the correct balance between safeguarding the rights of the person, particularly the vulnerable, and protecting communities. If it is not considered strong enough, I will bring forward amendments on Committee Stage to rectify any shortcomings. The conditional discharge conditions will enable patients to whom the Criminal Law (Insanity) Act 2005 applies and who are no longer in need of attention at that Central Mental Hospital to be allowed their freedom, while ensuring that the welfare and safety of those patients and the public interest are fully protected. I appreciate that she said in opening comments that there has been some progress in the mental health area. Although the health budget will be reduced by €600 million, I will not use that for a second as cover for our demands within the mental health budget. It has also been established that 70% of mental health issues begin in child and adolescent years so my pitch to the Government has been that the focus of funding this year must be in that specific direction.

We have all met with various groups who have put their case before us. It has been noted that Headstrong have a Jigsaw model and I saw what has happened at first hand when I called to Galway. I will not try to escape through the hatch and it has been quite properly pointed out to me that the budget allocation is down to 5.5%. I was questioned about this by Deputy Neville on previous occasions but have never used the excuse, which might give some cover, that funding is now being channelled to different areas, such as the primary care centres or community services. I fully acknowledge that until we show clear commitment to what we promised in A Vision for Change by way of community supports and community mental health teams, the argument about insufficient funding will remain. The challenge going into this budget will be to ensure that what we have promised in A Vision for Change can become a reality.

A Vision for Change is a ten-year programme and I will not use the term "work in progress", as a work in progress must come to a halt at some stage. We have approximately five years left for the programme, and there has been progress in the area of child and adolescent beds. The commitment is for 100 beds and as we have come from 30 to 55 beds, there is a long way to go. The option is to either suggest publicly that the programme is parked until the recession passes or else we work within the context of making the case to ensure that the commitments made in A Vision for Change become a reality. That will require funding.

Prior to Committee Stage full consideration will be given to the issues raised today. I take the point that the Government does not always have all the answers, and I note this in regard to what can come from the Opposition benches, particularly with regard to health care and mental health. I am open to and looking forward to amendments to improve the Bill.

It is important to mention that the scope of the Bill is limited and looks to ensure the difficulties regarding fitness to be tried and conditional discharge can be resolved as quickly as possible. Any other issues regarding the operation of the Criminal Law (Insanity) Act 2002 will be looked at in the context of the full review of the 2006 Act, which commenced towards the end of the year.

A number of Deputies made the same point about the future of Dundrum and I have dealt with it. The matter does not only concern criminal law and the electoral laws also refer to lunatics and people of insane mind with regard to participation in this House. The issue was raised at a public meeting in Tralee and I have written to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, since that meeting. I have sought a response ensuring that such references will be removed from the electoral laws. The proposal went in over six months ago and shows that we have much catching up to do, although the opportunity has presented itself for an open debate.

I hope I have answered most of the questions raised. I take Deputy Kathleen Lynch's point that the Bill is about hope, tolerance and recovery. The fundamental hope for A Vision for Change is recovery and the fundamental hope for this Bill is to drive the recovery forward for those who can participate in open society. I know there are many issues which must be dealt with so safeguards can be put in place but it is fair to say in response that it is up to us to show that when we talk about people being supervised, the correct supervisory treatment will be put in place and people can be trained appropriately. All of this is an attempt to tie in the commitments for A Vision for Change so that people can move from institutionalised care, whether it is the Central Mental Hospital or an acute hospital, provided that the necessary supports are in place.

Many of these issues are now being presented to us and in the past fortnight I have met with Amnesty, with which Deputy Neville was involved. They are putting together a proposal and perhaps its time is coming. Like the Italian model, it may be important to legislate for our commitments to spending. If we bring about another reform programme like A Vision for Change, there should be legislation underpinning the process to ensure whatever commitments we make can be legislated for. There should be penalties or conditions imposed if we fail.

I have responded as best I can to all the points. I thank all Deputies for their support and look forward to hearing amendments and proposals as we go through Committee Stage.

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