Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)

The Deputies mentioned inspection; vigilance and surveillance are always issues.

A number of contributors made reference to extra-territorial jurisdiction. This important aspect of the legislation extends the criminal jurisdiction of the State to acts committed outside the State regardless of the nationality of the perpetrator. This is only possible in rare cases such as war crimes. My advice is that it is a matter of legal policy. Ireland has only a limited basis for extra-territorial jurisdiction, but the fact that it is referenced here is important.

When Deputy Upton was talking I was struck by the thought that Members of the House are frequently regarded as jacks of all trades and masters of none. I am sorry the Deputy has had to leave because I had intended to pay tribute to the scientific focus she has brought to the House. Her research-based outlook is valuable and she made an interesting contribution. She recognised that there is a difficulty - also mentioned by Deputy Ó Snodaigh - with materials and processes that are used for positive scientific research but that have the potential to be used for negative purposes. She mentioned, in particular, the specific difficulties that arise from the capacity or otherwise of potentially harmless agents to be scaled up to a dangerous level. The Bill makes it clear that a biological weapon is a weaponized biological agent so it does speak to intent, which is the query that Deputy Ó Snodaigh raised. The Bill defines a "prohibited weapon" and the possession of a prohibited weapon as an offence - therefore, weaponizing is the issue. Sections 7 and 8 make it clear that the development or manufacture of an otherwise harmless or benign agent to the point of it being a weapon is the issue.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins referred to the horror of the Fallujah incident and Deputy Ó Snodaigh mentioned the extraordinary madness that informed the giving of either mustard gas or the agents for its creation to the Iraqi regime. The Fallujah incident did concern the use of phosphorus, which is a chemical element in incendiary weapons. Nonetheless I happen to share the view that it was supposedly used to illuminate a battlefield. It is very hard for any human being to stand up with a straight face and say that putting such a weapon into a school illuminated a battlefield. I am very conscious of the contribution made by Mr. John Ging in this case and his bravery and courage.

The Deputy also suggested that the compliance mechanism has been undermined. I have mentioned this already. It has been undermined and it has been undermined regularly in the United Nations by member states trading off. The Deputy is right, I was a critic of the structure of the United Nations. As Deputy Barrett said, surely when we walk into that building in New York, we are all equal, we are not children of a lesser God simply because we come from a nation that has 4 million people, rather than 44 million or 244 million. Citizens live and die in the same way, irrespective of race, colour or creed. Certainly the United Nations and the fact that there is a Security Council arrangement that gives special recognition to individual states is an historic anomaly and an issue that needs to be looked at. Two contributions mentioned that there should be a special position for the European Union. I am not sure there should be a special position for anybody.

Having dealt with Deputy Upton's contribution, I pay a personal tribute to her. She has brought a scientific rigour and interest in research in science into the House which is welcome.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh made a very interesting contribution where he talked about us setting a standard. It may not arise in a practical sense in an Irish context, that is, the manufacture or the weaponizing of biological material. The Bill is important in that it makes a statement. I agree with him and the fact that other nations have a responsibility to act in this way is helpful.

I agree very much with the Deputy's contribution, in particular, his reference to the horrors visited on the Kurds in Iraq and the moral responsibility that lies with those political friends of ours who made decisions to thus arm a repugnant regime. There is a moral consequence to every action we take as politicians. Certainly the people who made those decisions did not equip themselves very well.

I will look at any views that come forward on Committee Stage. I am grateful to the Deputies for their very positive contributions.

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