Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 4, line 14, to delete "guidelines" and substitute "directions".

I do not have any difficulty with Deputy Shatter's amendment. My amendment proposes to tighten up the Minister's powers in regard to the furnishing of information and regular reporting of information by the HSE. Amendment No. 2 proposes to use the term "directions" rather than "guidelines" because it is essential a Minister or Minister of State uses his or her political power in regard to these matters. The term "guidelines" may or may not be implemented but the term "directions" is much more definite in regard to the power of the Minister.

We really should not have to do this. The Minister should be able to get whatever information he or she requires in the interests of the public from the executive which is meant to implement the policy direction of the Minister. In a sense, it is quite farcical that we must introduce legislation to give a Minister of Government the power to tell an executive, which the Government has set up to implement its policies, that it must give certain information and provide certain documents to the Minister who, in turn, can pass them on to an expert group. It is really farcical in a democracy that we have to do this. We should use much tighter language in terms of the powers of the Minister. That is why I propose the term "directions" rather than "guidelines".

Amendment No. 4 also proposes the term "directions" rather than "guidelines" while amendment No. 3 inserts the following: "including as to the timing, manner and content of the furnishing of such information." It extends the power of the Minister to require regular reporting and to identify the way the Minister wants this information to be reported. Essentially, it gives the power to the Minister rather than leaving it in the hands of the HSE.

Unfortunately, the Minister for Health and Children constantly hides behind the HSE in terms of answering questions and taking responsibility for the debacles which happen in the health service. When something goes wrong we are told it is not a matter for the Minister but for the HSE. Similarly, we still get answers to parliamentary questions stating that the Minister cannot answer them and that the questions have been referred to the HSE.

If we can redress in this legislation the power relationship between the Minister for Health and Children and the HSE, then we will be doing a good day's work. However, when it comes to such important matters as files relating to the deaths of children being handed over to an independent review group which has been given the job of producing a report and recommendations, then it is vital that the Minister is as powerful and strong as possible in terms of his or her relationship with the HSE. It must be a relationship in which the Minister is the dominant person, not the HSE.

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