Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)

On the first matter, obviously the question of restitution has been dealt with. The very purpose of the redress board arrangements, established through the legislation we passed, was to provide for restitution and remove the process from a legalistic, adversarial court environment. The standards of proof that would be required in a court system were not required by the redress board. That people suffered abuse was taken as a fact. People obtained redress on foot of the evidence and experiences brought before the board. This worked very well. The full cost, €1.36 billion, represents a significant effort by the State to recognise that it had to take responsibility, along with others.

The fact is that the redress scheme was a very speedy way of dealing with the precise issue to which the Deputy referred, that is, having court-style proceedings in each case. One could easily speculate how long such a process would take and how difficult it would be for individuals. The matter was agreed in the House through the redress board legislation.

It was my job, on the basis of the expert panel's work and the submission of details on the assets and liabilities of the congregations - there was much discussion on what constituted the factual position - to let those concerned have the factual information and indicate to them what we believed was the best way forward based on the issues that arose. Some had certain views that they had already expressed on this matter in terms of information being provided to the individuals concerned again. There was an all-party motion in the House regarding the establishment of a trust fund, which was regarded as the best mechanism by which that task could be done, in addition to the individual redress people had obtained through the redress board facility provided for through legislation in the House. That is the position. I simply conveyed the Government's view to all the survivor groups to clarity the point and indicate precisely the circumstances that obtained.

The question on education is, as the Deputy knows, a matter for the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills. During discussion with representatives of the Catholic Church in November 2009, it was agreed that the Department of Education and Skills would look at identifying a sample number of areas of relatively stable demographics where a requirement for the establishment of new primary schools is unlikely to emerge in the foreseeable future, where the provision is exclusively Catholic and where there is limited diversity of provision at present. Work on the identification of ten such areas has now been completed within the Department of Education and Skills. The aim is that these areas can be used to trial the modalities by which the number of Catholic schools can be reduced thus releasing some schools for other patrons. The Tánaiste will shortly be informing the Government on the matter ahead of the publication of details of the sample areas.

On the present situation regarding new schools or new buildings, it is already Department of Education and Skills policy that new school buildings built on sites owned by the Minister are owned by the Department to be then leased to the relevant school patrons. This is, in effect, a reversal of the traditional relationship the State had with the traditional school patrons.

On transferring ownership of all existing schools to State ownership, I am satisfied that the current model, whereby the Minister enters into a lease with the school patron, remains a valid model for the existing stock of national schools, particularly in view of the likely costs associated with the purchasing of such lands which also assumes that the landowners in question would be willing to enter into voluntary sales of their lands. The Department's investment by way of a new building and/or extension or refurbishment works on lands not owned by the State is secured by way of a lease. In circumstances where the school patron wishes to sell the lands, the patron is required to apply to the Minister to surrender the Minister's interests, and it is generally policy that in processing such requests a suitable refund is sought from the patron.

On balance, therefore, I am not convinced there is a compelling case for the State to seek to take over the legal ownership of the total existing stock of schools. What is being done in the case of the new schools, as I stated, is that we have reversed the situation. In the case of the existing stock of schools, as I stated, there is a pilot programme being brought forward by the Tánaiste to look at various modalities as to how one would reduce the number of Catholic schools in an area where the demographics are steady and exclusively Catholic at present. In other situations in developing areas, one is seeing a diversity of patronage taking place.

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