Michael Kennedy (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)

For example, the state pension in the UK is £95 and our benefit is €230. There is a substantial difference, which was highlighted in the recent British general election. In the first leaders' debate, a question was asked from the audience whether any candidate would consider increasing the benefit. Effectively, the answer was that they would not because they believed it was reasonable and that the country could not afford an increase. Criticising the Irish Government and a Fianna Fáil-led Government for having the highest level of State benefit in Europe is farcical.

My view on State benefit is that no Government should consider reducing it. Our senior citizens built up our country and paid taxes. They brought Ireland where it is and the Minister should not countenance a reduction, notwithstanding the severe budgetary deficit that leaves us borrowing another €20 billion this year to bridge our finances.

Regarding child benefit, and considering the resources available, we must consider whether people earning high incomes should receive the same level of benefit as those without a job. I make this point to broaden the debate.

From meetings at clinics in my consittuency two issues of concern arise, namely, fraud and the issue of child benefit to single parents. The discussion we are having now is worthwhile and it is correct for us to have an informed debate and get the facts. In regard to fraud in the welfare system, last year more than €100 million was saved through the actions of the staff and officials of the Department, which is very welcome. It is what taxpayers and the public at large expect us to do. I congratulate the Department and exhort the staff to continue that work. In any aspect of our society fraud should not be permitted and I want to see scarce resources going where they should go.

In recent months I have been told of a number of instances of people flying in from Europe as daytrippers to collect their payments. The suggestion is that these people are not entitled to the money. If they are then they are entitled to collect it but if not they should be stopped. It was suggested to me that in the same way that Revenue and other sections are at the airport checking out people coming into the country, the Department of Social Protection should put officials with laptops there who would be allowed to question people coming off aeroplanes in order to establish whether they are coming here on holidays or for what people regard as a rip-off situation. I make that suggestion to the Minister and his officials so that it might be investigated as we endeavour to cut down on fraudulent payments. I believe it is worth a try and hope the Minister will consider it.

Along with my colleagues in the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party I have had a number of discussions with the Minister and am particularly interested in trying to utilise the skills of self-employed people who, unfortunately, are on dole queues at the moment. They get no automatic right to benefit at present and, having talked to a number of these people, I am of the opinion they would be willing to contribute to the system and pay a bit more on the basis that they would be allowed claim benefit if they got into the unfortunate situation of being out of work. As other speakers have noted, there are a number of activities in all our constituencies around the country at present where work is not being done. These highly skilled self-employed people, whether carpenters, plumbers, plasterers, bricklayers or whatever they may be, could do invaluable work. I believe they would be ready, willing and able, as the cliché has it, to carry out that work if the system permitted. I would like the Minister to investigate ways whereby some of these people might do 19 and a half hours' work, or perhaps longer hours, carrying out works for the benefit of their community.

This would have a dual effect. First, well-needed works could be carried out in localities at no cost to the State in return for the welfare payments. Equally, it would give some self respect to those unfortunate people who have no work at present and who feel bad about having to stay at home with nothing to do. I say to the Minister and his officials this is an issue we should fast-track and whatever laws, rules or regulations need to be changed we should get over them because of the dual benefit, both to the people who are claiming benefit at present and the communities where work is badly needed. I could speak for the next hour about works all around my constituency which need to be done and which I would like to see done.

Deputy Costello castigated the Government on this Bill but, again, he has not compared the Irish situation with our European counterparts. When one examines what is happening throughout Europe, and across the water in the United Kingdom, one sees that the proposals planned by the Government are more than reasonable. In the UK, to which we are often compared in many respects, from September the benefit for a lone parent will cease when the child reaches the age of seven. This came about under a socialist Government and I have not heard that the new Tory-Liberal Democrat Government plans to change it. There is realism, and keeping people at home, unemployed and drawing benefit, is not the way forward. What the Government is planning is reasonable and pragmatic.

Equally, if one compares Ireland with European countries, Norway, Sweden and Germany cease benefit when the child reaches the age of three. Our proposal is for the age of 13 and I have an open mind about whether the age should be 15. However, when one looks at the UK situation which will reduce the age in question to half what we propose, and at Norway, Sweden and Germany which have the age at a quarter of what we propose, it is not unreasonable that we should consider this measure.

I say this for two reasons. First, we need to prioritise upskilling, training and education for single parents. This is the best way forward in meeting both the needs of these people and those of society. I have met many single mothers and have a great deal of sympathy for those who find themselves in a situation with a child, no job and without family back-up whereby if they could get a job they might take it up. There is no financial incentive for people to take up a job if, as at present, they are able to claim benefit. That financial bottom line makes one much better off. We must consider the needs of society and of the person. Asking any young mother to get more education and upskill herself in a particular trade or business is for her own benefit and also for the benefit of society in general. It uses resources to better effect.

In the overall welfare situation, carers, pensioners and disabled people need maximum Government support and we must target our resources more effectively. In this regard I wish to reiterate the great record Fianna Fáil has had with regard to benefits. If we compare the State benefit of €230 versus that in the UK, it shows we are way ahead of Britain and Europe. Last year, the Government reduced the jobseeker's benefit to €150 where those persons would not take up job offers, or would not undergo training and up-skilling. I welcome that move because people need a financial incentive to make a choice. Do they stay at home and draw the dole or do they further their education, engage in training and up-skilling to be in a position to obtain a job?

I welcome the move to bring FÁS and all its training programmes under this new Department of Social Protection. Every aspect of welfare, be it payments, training, up-skilling and so on, should be under one umbrella and the Government has made the right decision in bringing the responsibilities under two previous Departments into the Department of Social Protection. Challenging ourselves to cut down long-term unemployment must be the aim. It is not good for the individual to have nothing to look forward to when he or she gets up every morning.

We need to make the right decisions to deal with the long-term unemployed. Incentivising people to up-skill, to educate themselves and to retrain is necessary because if we are not given an incentive to do something, we will take the easy option. This Bill is going a long way towards that. The financial penalty is the best way incentivising a person. The reduction in the jobseeker's allowance from €196 to €150 is one way of giving the person a choice to go out and get retrained or to sit at home and draw the cheque.

Statistics on poverty show that children from single parent homes are four times more likely to remain in poverty when they reach maturity. They are likely to fall into the same traps as their predecessors. That must be a concern of any Government for the future. The new rules in respect of 13 year old children will come about in 2024. Thirteen years is a reasonable timeframe for a single parent to re-educate, up-skill and retrain. If the single parent has gained a qualification in education at the end of the 13 years, then that is good for the parent and for society. A six year lead in for existing customers is a reasonable timeframe to up-skill and retrain.

I welcome the Minister's plans on the new community child care subvention. In any situation involving lone parents, child care is a very important facet. Anything that has labour activation focus has to be correct and I welcome that. Part of the Bill deals with the after school services and the home care clubs. People need that back-up service and it is a particularly important aspect of the Bill.

The Home-Start service is currently available in Clondalkin, Lucan and Blanchardstown, and it has recently been introduced to Swords, where one manager and a core number of volunteers help people in need, including single parents. They work on a minimum budget and they provide excellent value for money to the State. The salaried manager and the volunteers do fantastic work and the Minister should consider extending the services of these groups, fund the facility in Swords, and we will get value out of it.

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