Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)

I welcome this Bill and indeed would like to be associated with other speakers in complimenting the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern on bringing it forward.

We all know that the incidence of begging has increased enormously across the country. People say the reason is the downturn in the economy, but it has been evident in this city in both good and bad times. There were as many people begging in the capital and in the towns and villages in the good times, just as they are today, for whatever reasons.

People can be very critical and formerly it was said that it was always the Irish who were begging, homeless and so forth. However, the number of foreign nationals begging on our streets has increased fourfold in recent times. As my colleague talked about a girl he had come across here in Dublin, I recalled doing five or six runs around Merrion Park just before Christmas, in order to lose some weight. I did not succeed too well, but in any event I did my best. I saw four foreign nationals, three of whom had young babies in their arms, and they were begging to buy something for the children for Christmas. As I went around they were still there. When I had completed my rounds of the park I noticed that they were all in a group, having a chat, apparently dividing up the money. To me they were not begging individually. They seemed to be part of an organised group to beg on the streets.

As the Acting Chairman, Deputy Michael Kennedy has said, one would love to buy a person a loaf of bread, breakfast, a carton of milk, bar of chocolate or whatever, but they do not want these. I would be very concerned that they might be begging for drugs, given the problems we have here and in other countries in that regard. That is something I would be very worried about.

As the Acting Chairman and Deputy Clune have so rightly said, there are many organisations doing tremendous work for the homeless, such as St. Vincent de Paul which has a presence in so many parishes around the country. There is also the Simon Community, although this perhaps does not have such a large presence in rural parts. We met a group from the Minister's area, Dundalk, recently which had some concerns. I know the Simon Community is in Navan, Dundalk and the larger towns, but the St. Vincent de Paul Society is doing tremendous work in the smaller towns and the rural areas for those types of people.

I have had complaints from many elderly people about intimidation. Often they are so keen to help people who are begging, as they emerge from the post office, the credit union or the bank, or are doing their shopping in the supermarket or local shop. On some occasions when an elderly person takes out his or her wallet or purse to give something to a beggar, unfortunately somebody will grab it and run off with all the money. This happens regularly, regardless of whether this is organised. Although it may not be organised by those who are begging, people are watching out for such things and as soon as the elderly person takes out his or her purse, it is pinched and those responsible are gone. This is something about which I am greatly concerned.

While going through the Bill's provisions, I note that section 3 proposes a new power that would permit a member of the Garda Síochána to direct persons who are begging to desist and move on from some key locations, namely, from any point within 10 m of an ATM or a vending machine, an entrance to a dwelling or an entrance to a business premises that is open for trade or transaction with members of the public when the member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that due to the person's behaviour and the number of persons begging at or near those premises, members of the public are being or are likely to be deterred from entering the premises.

I also ask the Minister to consider precluding begging from events such as people attending religious services. This happens every Sunday and not only on Sunday. I often go to a church that is not too far from Leinster House during the day, at which it is possible to light a candle or perhaps attend mass and so forth, and the number of people who are begging outside it is enormous. At some churches, people can be seen begging both outside the gate and at the door. This is highly unfair and I appeal to the Minister to examine this area. I acknowledge that it is a public place within the grounds when people are attending a service. I also appeal to the Minister to consider sporting events such as Gaelic, rugby and soccer matches, as well as concerts. Perhaps on Committee Stage, when amendment are being made, he might include such events. In addition, an enormous amount of begging takes place at train stations and bus stops and it is unfair to those who are waiting at such locations or who are attending their local church for Sunday or daily service or whatever. The Minister should examine this issue.

I again compliment all the voluntary people who do so much work for the vulnerable. There is no need for much of the begging that takes place. The Acting Chairman, Deputy Kennedy, referred to being able to make €40 per day and that is a lot of money on top of one's social welfare benefits. Many people in receipt of social welfare benefits today do not receive any hard cash into their pockets and I am sure all those involved in the activity under discussion also are in receipt of some form of social welfare. I recently encountered a woman begging just down the street from Leinster House, who told me she was expecting a baby and had no money to visit the doctor. While I am sure that women had a medical card, she still was begging and this certainly is highly unfair.

As for fines, the Bill proposes that where begging is accompanied by threats, intimidation, violence or obstruction, an offence will carry a penalty of one month's imprisonment or a fine of €400. I am unsure whether it ever would be possible to get €400 from some of those involved, the foreign nationals in particular, even were they brought before a judge. On a few occasions, I have challenged people who were begging as to what they wanted the money for. All they could say in response was that they could not speak English. However, they had enough English to beg. Consequently, it will be very difficult for the Garda Síochána to bring charges against many of those concerned.

However, this Bill certainly constitutes a move in the right direction and I again compliment the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on its introduction. I again appeal to him to consider the inclusion on Committee Stage of those areas I suggested, such as church services, sports events, train stations, bus stops and so on. I include taxi ranks as another area at which begging takes place. I again thank the Minister. I am sure this Bill will be enacted and hope it will improve matters.

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