Eamon Ryan (Dublin South, Green Party)

I welcome the chance to engage further in this debate. I intended to listen to the priority question which was asked today and I am again called to respond to this issue because of the nature of our Adjournment debate. I am happy to do that. If the Deputy would like, I might respond to him by throwing back a number of questions to aid his consideration. Taking his points, if I can, the direction of my questions will be based on his speech and some of the thoughts I have reflecting on that.

The first point is debatable. The Deputy said that the growth of the game of rugby is directly correlated to the amount of money invested in the game. People would question that assumption but I will accept it for the moment. The €250 million that the Government has invested in recent years in stadiums and clubs and through licence fee money and broadcasting rights gives us a say in sport.

We are selling broadcasting rights for approximately €5 million, with €3 million from the sale of Six Nations games and €2 million for the Heineken Cup but the Deputy estimated losses of €10 million to €12 million from our shared pool with other broadcasters. I would question his estimate, however. The bulk of the money we bring in from other countries, or approximately €8 million, comes from Six Nations games and I understand this money is guaranteed by contract arrangement for the next three years. I see no reason why that should not continue into the future as the revenue that we would accrue. The fear of losing €11 million is greatly diminished by the certainty that €8 million is already guaranteed. In regard to the Heineken Cup, we are selling rights for €2 million and collecting €3 million in additional revenue - these figures are broad and I merely use them to tease out the Deputy's arguments - and we must ask whether we are likely to lose this money.

I disagree with the Deputy's assertion that by seeking to ring-fence games away from pay television, we would threaten these revenues. I do not think anybody is proposing an arrangement which would exclude pay television operators, who provide good coverage and important sporting services. All we are seeking is to ensure that Irish people are not excluded from certain events. The evidence shows that by closing off free-to-air access, at least four fifths of the audience are excluded. We would thereby prevent Irish sporting fans from viewing games which they regard as important. Younger people would be excluded because typically they cannot go to pubs to watch games. It is important that they have their heroes and that they can grow up thinking they will be the next Ronan O'Gara or Brian O'Driscoll. We would also be excluding older people. I have received genuine correspondence from all sides of this debate, including letters from people who expressed fears that anything would happen to the sport. That is the last thing I would like to see. I have also received a number of letters from older people who played the game in their youth but cannot follow it now unless it is made free-to-air.

Rugby, which has done very well recently, can be moved away from what is seen as an exclusive arena involving certain schools and areas to a broader constituency which might include the Deputy's own county. Exclusion would not be a clever strategy for the development of the game of rugby in this country. I can offer many good examples of how we can offer an inclusive approach that is also commercially viable. Most recently, FAI friendly matches were made available on free-to-air television in Ireland as well as on pay television. In the past one could switch from one commentator to another without affecting transmission or broadcasting rights. Numerous broadcasters and commentators were able to share Champions League matches, thereby making them even more popular and successful. Rather than seeking to ring-fence, therefore, we want to include as many as possible.

The Deputy personally believes Six Nations matches should be free-to-air. I have heard similar opinions from other people who have raised concerns about these proposals. If it is his personal view that Irish people should be able to see the Irish team in action, it is better to be honest and ask broadcasters to negotiate to put such arrangements into place. That will not undermine the revenue stream for the Irish team or rugby in general. I welcome the ideas of others in regard to trying to ensure matches are free-to-air without guaranteeing that objective.

It is true that France has in place commercial arrangements which guarantee free-to-air access for the national team and local teams when they are playing in their Heineken Cup finals. I accept that France has greater commercial might but while we may be small in numbers, we have enjoyed huge success when we travelled away to support our teams. I contend that we have made that competition in recent years through free-to-air access. We were able to build our success because so many people were able to watch matches, with 500,000 people tuning in to share the experience of winning. We should not be shy when we go to other countries for sporting occasions. More than any others, Irish supporters bring colour and a good atmosphere. That is worth something.

I do not suggest a piecemeal approach to selling rights. It is up to the IRFU and its international partners to agree the best arrangements. We are not looking to impinge upon rights, sales or commercial revenues in other countries. I believe it is possible to meet both objectives. The Government is considering the public interest in making certain sporting events freely available and paid for at commercial rates to help the sport continue to thrive.

I do not agree with the Deputy's conclusion that such an approach might weaken our international sporting relationships. The French and British Governments are considering the very same measures at present. Nor do I think it will damage patronage for Ireland, Inc. This country is not just a commercial operation. Ireland comes together for key sporting events, such as certain Gaelic football, hurling, soccer and rugby matches. We are slightly diminished when we do not share these successful moments. We must consider whether we want to protect and develop these events for the Irish nation as well as for the good of Irish sport.

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