Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill this evening. Public order is very important. While I appreciate that an important aspect of the Bill is to rectify the legislation on begging, I would like to mention a number of other public order issues, at least in passing.

If it were not for the Simon communities, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and people like them we would have many more beggars on the streets in our current situation. There are often delays in social welfare payments and people can have difficulty getting social welfare payments although they are entitled to them. A situation now exists which has not done for many years.

The legal action taken regarding the Dillon case made it essential to update the law, but it is important that we not only update the law, but make sure we give the gardaí the personnel and wherewithal to deal with what is happening.

The previous speaker mentioned magazine sellers and people collecting at dangerous junctions. That is something I would like to see controlled and curtailed. If the law is not already sufficient to deal with it, I hope this Bill will do so.

The purpose of the Bill is to provide a legal mechanism to control and deter begging. Businesses and tourism interests have welcomed the Bill, particularly citing the evidence of the visible increase in the number of people begging on our streets since the decision in the Dillon case. The Minister heralded the Bill as a modern and reasonable solution to a problem we cannot ignore. However, it is important that we recognise that problems such as this are often caused by poverty. We cannot ignore that either. The Bill will give the Garda a new direction. Gardaí will be able to make sure people move on from ATM points, dwellings and business premises. Begging near to business premises can be very annoying and wrong. It is extremely important that people, especially the elderly, can move about the streets freely when they are shopping in towns and do not feel under pressure, intimidated or forced to give money they cannot afford.

When I saw the Bill on the Clár, I seized the opportunity to mention an issue which was raised at a joint policing committee in Clones, a place where I went to school and which I know extremely well. Clones is normally a quiet wee place but it now has a major social problem. People are gathering in the Diamond, drinking and begging at the same time. This is not acceptable and cannot be allowed to continue. I hope the Bill has sufficient power to see it does not happen. We held a public meeting of the joint policing group in Clones some weeks ago. It was difficult to listen to some of the stories told by local people who had been the victims of the situation. Problems are arising not just late at night, but during the day and at weekends. There is a public order problem and we need to ensure it is controlled.

I wish to speak about another important issue. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform lives close to the Border, as I do. Public order can be affected by what is happening among dissidents. Today, we heard a report from the national monitoring committee that groups are actively recruiting young people. They are making bombs. We had proof of that outside Dundalk this week, if we did not know it before. In this context, I congratulate the gardaí who, working with the PSNI and others, ensured that two of the people involved are now behind bars. This may send out a message that this sort of public order offence will not be allowed to continue. I emphasise to the Minister the need to ensure that there are sufficient gardaí, whether to enforce public order in Clones or to deal with the curtailment of dissidents.

We have had major problems with public order on the roads around Clones and on the road between Clones and Cavan, which runs north and south of the Border. Again, I congratulate the Garda and the PSNI, who have done tremendous work in bringing that area under some control. It is not an easy situation. I know the area extremely well, as my uncle lived there until his death a short time ago and I still have family members there. Moving in the district, one is in and out of the North like a yo-yo. People from all over the country got to know about it as an area they could use for all sorts of wrong behaviour. I congratulate the Garda and PSNI on their work there.

When we go out onto the streets of this city at night, it is difficult to understand why so many people are lying in doorways, begging and unable to look after themselves. Having come through ten or 15 years of reasonable wealth, it is unacceptable that this situation persists. I think of my own home town of Monaghan. Many years ago, we had a busy St. Davnet's hospital which had a unit for the treatment of alcoholics. It was run by the county council and later inherited by the health board, which kept it going for a long time. The unit dealt successfully with people who had difficulties with alcohol. We must go to the source of the problem. There is no point in simply arresting beggars and throwing them into jail. We must find out why they are there and what is causing them to beg. If their difficulties stem from the abuse of alcohol or drugs, it is in our best interest to ensure the facilities exist to deal with those problems. I urge that this be looked at by the Government, because the Bill, in itself, will not solve these issues.

The use of children for begging is the most distasteful thing possible. I know Barnados and other organisations are extremely worried about how children will be treated under the Bill. Children are being put out to act as beggars while their parents and their colleagues collect the children's takings to spend on alcohol, drugs or whatever else. We must ensure that children are not the victims, either of the Bill or of the situation.

Begging will not go away because of this Bill. It has been there since the start of the world. An earlier speaker remarked that it is mentioned several times in the Bible. The Lord was quicker to forgive the beggar than the wealthy man. We need not think we will do away with begging. What we need to do is control it and do our very best to deal with it in a structured and proper way.

It is not just in Dublin that there are homeless people because they are all over the country. There have never been more houses lying vacant. The Government has clearly failed to utilise these houses, which are of extremely fine quality, and to ensure people are housed in the best possible way.

I welcome the Bill and the laws in place to ensure the Garda has the power to control begging. There was a barracks in Clones when I was at school there. The Garda barracks was replaced with a brand new building. Unfortunately, there is a green box on the door of it every night. If we are to control the problems in the town and many similar towns, we will have to re-examine how we deploy gardaí and provide them with the services needed to protect citizens and ensure begging and more serious crimes are controlled.

I ask the Minister to consider how the system is working or, in some cases, not working. I know the gardaí in Monaghan better than most and talk to them regularly. They certainly want to do their best but are curtailed by the structures now in place. We need to see them on the beat as much as possible. There is no point in having this law in place if there are no gardaí to prevent a beggar who is in the wrong place at the wrong time from remaining there for as long as he likes because he has no need to worry that a garda will appear.

I support the Minister on this Bill but beg him to ensure that, irrespective of the other problems in the country, the gardaí will be plentiful on the Border considering the current circumstances. Those gardaí who are not needed for administrative purposes should be on the ground such that we will see a very visible Garda force working with the people to ensure those who commit themselves to it are safe and sound.

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