Trevor Sargent (Dublin North, Green Party)

I wish to share time with Deputy Kenneally.

I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate. I recognise this is timely legislation, which will fill a vacuum in the law after section 3 of the Vagrancy Act 1847, which made begging in a public place an offence, was struck down as unconstitutional in the High Court in 2007. Ireland was different in 1847 and it was a different time. The 1847 legislation was colonial and it was brought in while the trauma of the Famine was still raging. One can only imagine the amount of suffering and the pressure to beg that was apparent everywhere one went at that time. However, the Bill endeavours in a more modern context to strike a balance. It is not always easy but it is important that we strive with every piece of advice, wisdom and reflection at our disposal to meet the needs of those who need help, especially when they feel they need to beg, and also to prevent exploitation of people who might be minded to help those in need or of those who are in need by people begging even when they do not need to, thereby making it difficult for those who need to beg.

Although the Bill is short, a large number of factors need to be taken into account. Comments from the Irish Human Rights Commission are useful and I appreciate the earlier drafting of the offence of persistent begging was not included because of the difficulty of defining "persistent". It is difficult to be categorical about it from a legal point of view but the bigger question relates to those who are homeless. I acknowledge that not everybody who is homeless begs and not everybody who begs is homeless but, anecdotally, I have spoken to people who beg and many of them say they are homeless and that they could not countenance taking up a bed in the shelters provided because of fear or because of their own mental state which would mean they are not comfortable in that situation. One way or the other, they do not have a home address, which is an issue that needs to be resolved. The last place somebody slept is the best he or she can manage as an address. We need to examine this to see how we can get around the technicality that the fact they are homeless means they do not have an address and if they have not been to a shelter that makes it more difficult still. That matter must be reflected on before Committee Stage.

The concerns raised by Barnardos also need to be examined. However, I hope, for example, if a child is lost in a supermarket as opposed to begging, it will not be unreasonable for him or her to be taken to the manager's office and a call to be put out looking for the guardian or parent to come and pick up the child. Likewise, there are young people who have just become adults who beg and this could be a form of child abuse. Arresting a child in this circumstance would not be appropriate but taking him or her to a safe place and finding out who are the adults responsible for him or her begging on the street would be a reasonable course of action, which would not contravene the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. To walk past a child is probably more difficult to defend. A duty of care rather than criminalisation is what we are about in the legislation and it needs to be seen in that regard.

I pay tribute to the work of the Leanbh service of the ISPCC. Leanbh was set up in 1997 to address child begging in Dublin and it is a 24-7 service for children and young people who beg or who are at risk of begging on the streets and their parents. It monitors the incidence of child begging, assesses and responds to child protection risks and provides positive parenting programmes, which is an important part of the response, and mentoring support to both parents and children. This is an important service. Leanbh works with young people from the wider Roma and Traveller communities as well as with members of new communities seeking asylum in Ireland. It has the experience we would find useful in framing this legislation and striking the correct balance.

I spoke to Fr. Peter McVerry, who was interviewed earlier on "Morning Ireland", about this issue recently at a community council AGM in Donabate, County Dublin and he said the most important action in regard to begging is to talk to people. The dignity of people who are forced into this position is low and their self-esteem is severely dented. Whatever else we try to do, we should at least talk to those who beg because to turn the other way will further strip away their sense of dignity, which is low. Engaging with those who are on the street and working with their families and communities, as has been suggested by all the organisations mentioned, will be an important part of our response to this issue.

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