Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)

This Bill tries to balance the obvious desire of the public to contribute to charity and to individual beggars with public order. Giving to charity is a feature of Irish life. All surveys find that Irish people like to give alms. I understand that more than 30% of the Irish population still do so. The aim of the Bill is to ensure, following the Dillon judgment, that we preserve freedom of speech and the freedoms to come and go, to integrate with the public and to congregate. It will aims to prevent members of the public from being intimidated, bullied or frightened and businesses from being interfered with unnecessarily.

Many shopkeepers and business owners have said to me, particularly in the last four or five years, that they find it an impediment to have people begging on or outside their premises. In most cases this does not cause huge annoyance but sometimes persistent begging can become acute. A certain boldness is coming into the procedure and it is interfering with businesses. This is one of the reasons why the Bill is necessary, although I have big issues with the other end of the Bill, which I will deal with presently.

In New York a number of years ago, there was a proposal to, as they said, clean out the streets. It appears to have worked extremely well. The briefing material we received for this Bill says the city of New York is having a re-think of that measure, but at that time there seems to have been a clean sweep, on the basis that people who are begging should not do so on the public thoroughfare and in places where the public congregate.

Another aspect of begging is the unasked for attention of people who offer, for example, to wash one's car windscreen. Will this legislation apply to such people? Let us consider a woman with a car full of children who, on stopping at a traffic light, finds someone wiping her windscreen, which she did not ask him to do and which she does not want. This can be quite a problem for people. Will the Bill relate to that problem?

All over the country, and particularly in the cities and towns, beggars hang around ATM machines, banks and post offices. This is fine if the beggar is well known as someone local. There are some places where we expect to find a certain person begging and we know he or she will not intimidate anyone. The public have no problem with a character of that sort. I am sure some Members have been to Shop Street in Galway on a lovely summer day. I always see a man there, who is supposed to be blind, playing his accordion. He has a bowl to collect money and is clearly begging. I hope the legislation will not mean he would have to be moved on, because people like to see him there. He adds to the ambience of the street on a summer day in Galway city. There are such people everywhere but he is the one who comes to my mind. I hope the law, and the enforcement of the law, will distinguish between the person who is acting the maggot on a supermarket campus, creating trouble and interfering with shoppers and someone who is providing a bit of music and gathering a few euro for himself. I hope that distinction can be made in the legislation. I assume the gardaí, who will implement the legislation, will have the good sense to know that anyway. I am sure they will.

The Bill does not interfere with charities doing their normal work under regulation and licence. This is an important aspect of the legislation. When the Minister introduced the Bill, he assured the House that it would not interfere with legitimate charities. I suspect that many charities will welcome parts of the legislation because uncontrolled begging can interfere with their fund-raising.

Begging rings that include children were mentioned to me on a number of occasions although I have no personal information on them. It was suggested to me that there are people using children to beg in an organised fashion as part of begging rings, not only in Dublin but also in bigger provincial towns. I am not sure whether this Bill extends to this activity or whether it can be included at a later stage if enough information materialises. If the Minister has received evidence of it through the Garda, it would be best to examine it. The activity could create havoc if let run wild.

We all know the question of begging has arisen for generations and I will not delay the House by referring to Famine times; suffice it to say begging takes many different forms and changes from generation to generation. When I was a lot younger, the only people I ever saw begging in rural County Galway were what we call the Travellers or tinkers. That is what they did. I remember them coming to our house on several occasions. Every household in our townland, including my mother's, was only too delighted to give them something. However, that is not the kind of activity we are talking about in respect of this Bill. The kind of begging that occurred in the past has not featured for many years and the Travellers do not engage in it at all today.

I suspect that, over the past five or ten years, a more aggressive type of begging has been taking place. Some assume those responsible are all foreign nationals but this is not the case based on the people I see involved in my town. The begging is more aggressive than it used to be and there is a certain element of intimidation.

I am sure the Minister is well aware, and perhaps more aware than me, that legislation will not work unless there are penalties for non-compliance. While we fully accept that concept, we must consider the kinds of people most likely to engage in begging. Some are homeless for various reasons, sometimes because they have been kicked out of their houses. Some are on drugs or drink, or a combination of both, and some have mental health problems.

My problem is that some of the penalties listed in the Bill include fines as high as €400, or a month in prison. The people I have referred to are the most likely to be sent to prison. The one point of which one can be sure is that they are unlikely to have €400 if fined to this extent. I am not sure that putting them in prison in Castlerea, Limerick, Mountjoy or elsewhere will solve any problem at all. In fact, it will create more problems.

What does one do with offenders? One must be realistic and agree there must be some kind of penalty. I assume it is possible to consider community service as an alternative to a prison sentence. Whether it is practical is another story.

I would like to believe that every effort would be made by the various responsible agencies to connect with and do something for the people in the category to which I refer when they appear before the courts. I am around for long enough to know that these are very difficult circumstances to be in. Jailing a person on drink or drugs, or who has a mental health problem, does not solve any problem for anyone.

Bearing in mind the revolving door concept, I was listening to the former governor of Mountjoy jail some days ago and noted that jail seems to be packed out altogether. I assume that if this legislation, to which it appears all parties are agreeing in principle, is implemented vigorously by an Garda, as it is obliged to do, the number in jail will be higher than at present. If so, we will have more trouble than we envisaged. If it is possible to consider community service rather than jail, it would be better.

I have no doubt but that 90% of the people concerned, if convicted and fined €400 or €200, will most likely not have that amount. One can rest assured they are unlikely to have any friend prepared to bail them out. Unfortunately, it does not happen at that level.

See this speech in context