Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)

One would not get 30 minutes to deal with the banking crisis, yet we can devote that much time per speaker to dealing with beggars. When the history of this time is written, people will see in the middle of the year 2010 that at the nadir of the worst recession that ever affected this country in living memory our preoccupation in this House is with a Bill to put beggars in prison.

I am uneasy about the Bill. I note that its purpose is to replace the Vagrancy Act 1847. I do not get much comfort from that either, in the sense that I hope the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform does not know something the rest of us do not know and anticipates the return of famine conditions given that the Bill replaces one that was introduced at the height of the Famine. In 1847 the unfortunate beggars were usually people forced onto the streets to beg because of famine conditions. They could end up being incarcerated in the house of correction for a month. The mindset has not changed much since then because the penalty outlined in the Bill in cases where the unfortunate beggar is unable to discharge the fine is a month in prison. Not much has changed. One has to look at the Bill in the context of the Bill we enacted last week, namely, one to diminish the number of times that someone unable to discharge a fine ends up in Mountjoy or in another prison. In this case we are expressly providing that where a beggar is unable to discharge a fine that he - beggars are mostly men - can end up in Mountjoy for a month. On the one hand we are sponsoring and advocating legislation the purpose of which is to limit the number of people who go to prison for failure to pay a fine and in this Bill we are expressly providing that the ultimate sanction is imprisonment for someone in breach, as envisaged in this legislation. It seems to me a head-on contradiction between our purpose in one piece of legislation and in another.

As the Minister indicated, the High Court struck down the Act in 2007 for the reasons he stated. It appears that it is the conventional wisdom, and certainly the wisdom of his departmental servants, that the visibility and extent of begging on the streets has increased.

Apparently, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is of the opinion that this phenomenon cannot be coped with within the existing legislation. It seems to believe that the public order law, for example, is not capable of dealing with it. Garda estimates of the extent of begging are questioned by those who work at the coal face. It was claimed in 2007, at the time of the Dillon case, that begging was an increasing criminal justice problem. The figures show that successful begging prosecutions fell dramatically in the years leading up to that action. Some 729 proceedings were initiated in 2003, but that number was just 395 in 2006 and just 64 in 2007. There were 274 convictions in 2003, but just 14 in 2007. The statistics do not appear to be consistent with the claims that are made about a worsening phenomenon. A helpful table in the digest prepared by the library and research service sets out the proceedings initiated and convictions secured, etc., for the five years running up to 2007. I would like to hear more about the Minister's expert advice in light of this apparent inconsistency. It is claimed that the phenomenon we are debating is worsening, but the statistics tend to show that the opposite is the case.

I do not seek to deny the anecdotal evidence that exists. There are concerns about this issue for a variety of reasons, some of which are quite complex. A number of people on the streets are begging for subsistence reasons. Some of them beg because they are suffering from the effects of the misuse of drugs, or from mental health problems. Others are immigrants who have fallen on hard times - members of the Roma community, for example. I accept that a distinction must be drawn between the phenomenon of begging, as we know it in this country, and the forms of begging that involve intimidation, harassment or serious activity that is likely to constitute a danger to drivers, for example. It should be possible to control this situation.

I have serious doubts about the merits of a law that threatens the incarceration of an ordinary beggar who is unable to discharge a fine. We passed the Fines Bill 2010, the underlying principle of which is to keep people who do not pay fines out of prison, last week. I appreciate these questions can be answered on Committee Stage. I wonder how deeply the Minister has probed this question. What sanctions are appropriate when the Garda feels it has to proceed with a prosecution in respect of a breach of this legislation? I am talking about the average person begging on the streets, rather than members of the criminal fraternity. How realistic is it to ask people who are down on their luck - the homeless, drug abusers or those who have been ejected from their homes - to pay fines of €200 or €400 in the knowledge that if they are unable to do so, they will be sentenced to months in Mountjoy Prison?

See this speech in context