Brian Hayes (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)

They certainly are not any more and this point must be recognised. However, listening to some commentators, one would have thought they are a kind of ideologically driven school, which is not the case. A significant number of children in these schools come from homes in which the parents may be baptised Catholics but are not part and parcel of the Catholic Church on a weekly or monthly basis. However, that is fine because they are local national schools.

I am not convinced by the argument that parents throughout the country are obsessed by the issue of patronage on an annual, daily or weekly basis. In common with the Tánaiste and Deputy Quinn, I travel around the country visiting many schools and the great majority of parents speak to me about buildings, special needs assistants, teachers, principals and quality. They are not obsessed by the issue of school patronage. However, I also recognise that a significant minority of parents are concerned that they lack the choice within their locality of a different form of school that reflects their ethos and particular view of the world. Consequently, Members have an obligation to provide this.

As a starting point, I wish to set out some ideas I have on this subject, on the basis that the Tánaiste is in listening mode today. I am familiar with what the Tánaiste had to say regarding my comments concerning a survey. I want the Department of Education and Skills to organise it. While I am fascinated to read opinion polls in The Irish Times and to hear what the Iona Institute might tell me, the Department of Education and Skills should organise a simple survey of every parent in the country to ascertain their views on this issue to gauge how widespread is the dissatisfaction with the present set-up. The Tánaiste is the appropriate person to do this as it is her job, not some other organisation which may have an ideological bent one way or the other. It would be good to have some direct information on this issue. The Tánaiste is not in favour of the form, which I consider to be a missed opportunity. An opportunity for public bilaterals is required, rather than the private bilaterals that take place at present between some of the patrons and the Department. The idea of a survey is a means of achieving this.

Every new school that has been established over the past 15 years effectively has been one for which the land has been purchased by the State and the buildings have been provided by the State. Such schools then have been leased to a patron, be it Catholic, Protestant, Educate Together, Gaelscoieanna or whatever. I believe this is the format that must be arrived at in virtually the entire school system.

I also believe the State should own the lands and buildings of all education facilities but that it should lease out to various education providers, that is, patrons, those buildings for the purposes of those educational facilities. This is important because it is not the responsibility of the Catholic Church, the Protestant churches or any other church to fund school buildings. It is the responsibility of taxpayers to so do and without fund-raising it is very difficult to get together the funds to allow a school to proceed. In the long term, we should be working towards a point at which all buildings should be in the ownership of the State but leased out to patrons as a means of providing education for the purposes of the ethos of those patrons and the parents who want those patrons. This is a development that should happen.

I am very interested in what has happened at post-primary level in recent years, whereby the religious orders have reorganised themselves into educational trusts. This is a useful new development in which effectively, the nuns, brothers and priests have established new educational trusts for the purposes of providing schools within the voluntary sector. This should be considered as a model for primary education. The idea that schools should come under the direct control of a bishop and a diocese is very dated. The Catholic Church is considering a review of dioceses as a current issue, for instance.

However, it would be useful to examine the concept of trusts, as established at a post-primary level, to ascertain whether it could work out at primary school level as well. Effectively, one would have a trust that would have the opportunity to provide schools throughout the country on a centralised basis. As many parish priests who are on multiple boards of management have told me, they find it difficult to attend meetings of all these boards. While I will not mention names in the House, this is a real issue for the church. I believe the church has a responsibility to ascertain whether the manner in which the patronage model is rolled out can be reorganised and can be done on a more sensible basis. Consequently, what has happened at post-primary level is interesting.

Issues also arise in respect of boards of management. An increase in the number of parents' representatives on such boards should be considered. At present, they have eight members, two of whom effectively are parents' representatives. Why should this not be increased? In some areas with big or small schools, the opportunity of having a single board of management for a number of schools should be considered. Such a clustering idea could be examined as a means of achieving greater efficiencies and of allowing the affected schools to achieve their goals in their own localities. While many measures can be taken in this regard, ultimately it will require a public debate because none of these things will happen overnight.

The Tánaiste spoke about the new community school model. If ever there was an example of how dysfunctional is the Department of Education and Science, it is on this issue. At present two such schools are operating in County Dublin. I understand that next year, additional community national schools will open in counties Kildare and Meath as well. However, the requisite legislation has not passed through this House.

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