Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)

In fairness, we must acknowledge a decent Bill when it comes before us. We in the Labour Party sought to ensure that the Minister would take into account a person's earnings and means when making a decision on imprisonment. I am glad that has happened.

I take the Minister's point about the small percentage of those who are in prison as a result of non-payment of fines. However, this Bill is only one part of a jigsaw that needs to be examined, because the overall prison service must also be examined. The recent departure of Kathleen McMahon and John Lonergan is significant and we must take cognisance of what Ms McMahon was saying in respect of the governance procedures that dictate how the prison system is run.

There is an issue of overcrowding and there are scenarios where we have three or four people in a cell. The former governor of Mountjoy Prison has spoken extensively about the humane treatment of prisoners. The idea of a prisoner slopping out in this day and age is ludicrous. If we take the Fines Bill as one part of the jigsaw, then there is no doubt that we will have fewer people in prison as a result of this legislation, which is welcome. However, common sense must speak to the issue of overcrowding in prisons and the governance procedures for the prison service. We need to ask whether somebody like Ms Kathleen McMahon could have stayed within the system if she had been allowed a greater deal of autonomy to allow her to progress the agenda upon which she had embarked. There is also the issue of the Dóchas centre. There is overcrowding and there seems to be a shortage of prison places. The Minister recently stated in this House that Kilworth prison is still on the agenda. In real terms there is no sign of that prison and the creation of extra places. A wider debate needs to take place on this issue. We support the Bill, which we hope will reduce the number of people in prison. We hope a qualitative and quantitative approach taken to how the prison system is run.

Seanad amendments reported.

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