Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick East, Fine Gael)

I am delighted to speak on the motion, tabled by Deputy Bruton. Legislation should be fair. The Government is hiding behind legal argument in claiming to be bound by the advice of the Attorney General. The least it can do is to publish that advice and acknowledge that there are two sides to this constitutional argument. The Government is hiding behind the issue of property rights yet it introduced two separate Bills affecting public sector workers, who at the moment are being asked to vote on the Croke Park pay deal. The Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 introduced the pension levy and the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (No. 2) Act 2009 introduced the pay cut. The same principles apply. People had particular property rights but given the financial situation in which the country finds itself, they were put aside in the common good.

It is not credible for the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance to come forward and state they cannot interfere with the property rights of Deputies in receipt of ministerial pensions. I accept they have done service to the State, but it is an inconsistency that does not stand up. What is required is leadership. There is a complete lack of leadership and understanding what ordinary people outside this Chamber are experiencing. People in the public sector are having difficulty paying their mortgages, child care costs and car loan repayments. Across the spectrum, people are losing their jobs. An additional 250,000 people have gone on the live register in the past two years alone. Unlike the 1980s in this recession people are heavily in debt. People with high mortgages - many of them 100% mortgages - are going overnight from having well paid jobs to being on social welfare. They are in dire danger of losing their homes. There is an agreement in place with the banks, but how long will that last?

It is about fairness. Deputy McDaid is in the House tonight. Everyone should be sharing in the pain. People who are retired are entitled to their pensions. The ordinary person looking in is asking why people who are not retired - many of them below retirement pensionable age - are getting pensions. I accept it is difficult for anyone to give up money. However, it is about fairness and balance. The Taoiseach and Minister for Finance have talked about it being unconstitutional. I call on them to introduce the legislation and see if anyone tests whether it is constitutional. Given that the Government has introduced two similar Bills to apply the pension levy and the public sector pay cut, which act on the same principles, why should it be any different for people in receipt of ministerial pensions while still in their jobs as Deputies and Senators?

The Fine Gael and Labour Deputies voluntarily gave up their ministerial pensions on which I commend them. Two elements are required. The remaining former Ministers in Fianna Fáil need to take that leap. They need to come forward in this Chamber or elsewhere and state they are relinquishing their ministerial pensions. Furthermore we need to introduce legislation to show the people that the Government and this House mean business and that we will make the changes.

We live in very difficult times. We are in the middle of an economic crisis, highlighted by the difficulties in Greece. Here government bond rates are at 5.65% today, an increase of 25% or 1.1 percentage points since the Greek crisis arose in the past week or ten days. That will increase the cost of borrowing for the State. People from across a broad spectrum, who are all making extreme sacrifices, are coming into our clinics every day, something on which we in this House need to reflect. We should be leading. The Taoiseach should appear before the House tonight to announce the introduction of this legislation. The remaining former Ministers should reflect on the situation at hand. Discussion of witch hunts and everything like that is only a sideshow. The main show at hand at the moment is that Ireland is in the worst economic crisis since the foundation of the State.

In the 1980s we had very high public debt but relatively low private debt. However, we now have extremely high private debt. I believe we have the highest per capita borrowing in the EU, which is frightening. People are losing their jobs. Those in the public sector have already taken a pension levy and pay cuts. Those in the private sector are taking pay cuts and are losing their jobs. We need fairness to be reflected and the pensions to be relinquished. Legislation needs to be introduced to ensure that happens.

Furthermore we need a proper strategic approach from Government in tackling the jobs crisis. There are three elements: a fiscal crisis; a banking crisis; and a jobs crisis. If the same effort and attention were given by the Government to the jobs crisis as has been given to the banking crisis at times, it would have paid considerably more dividend. If we get credit flowing from the banks without having a jobs strategy in place, we will not come out of recession. That is borne out by the ERSI and various eminent economists. More than half of our general government deficit has arisen because of unemployment.

We are here to represent people. We can never forget that the electorate put us here. There is a danger that the House can become a cocoon, totally divorced from what is happening in the real world. That is what has happened to the Cabinet and in particular to the Taoiseach. The Government now needs to step back and look at the issues at hand. First, it must show leadership. One of the key elements of leadership is fairness. One of the key elements is the issue of ministerial pensions for existing Members of the Oireachtas. I look forward to Deputy McDaid's speech tonight to hear his views on the matter. We must take cognisance of what people are going through and show leadership. Furthermore the Government needs to introduce legislation to ensure this happens.

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