James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate because this issue is determining the future of this country for generations to come. The decisions taken in the past 24 hours will have consequences for ourselves, our children and our children's children. That is the harsh reality. Dr. Peter Bacon, the author of the concept of NAMA, said "Anglo Irish Bank is the Celtic Chernobyl". The figures we received so far are incomplete and may become much worse, to paraphrase Dr. Bacon. Anglo Irish Bank and the Government say it will be more expensive to close down the bank in an orderly fashion. On what basis is this assumption made and where are the figures to back this up? No one has had the opportunity to examine the figures and where they come from. We are asked to go on blind trust again with the Government whose subliminal message was, as pointed out by Deputy D'Arcy, that the fundamentals were sound. To go forward on this basis is deeply disconcerting for the people and Members on this side of the House.

Anglo Irish Bank is a dead bank that will never lend again. We previously injected €4 billion, then €8 billion and the Minister for Finance has indicated there will be a further €10 billion required. That is not the end of it. The ink was hardly dry on the paper before Mr. Dukes came out indicating the figure may be higher. We are supposed to trust this. With every passing week new figures are put forward and they are unexplained, as were the figures before. We are basing our assumptions on information given from Anglo Irish Bank to the Government, which takes it on face value and expects us to swallow it. Every figure from Anglo Irish Bank to date has been grossly incorrect, out of date and underestimated. The Department of Finance got it wrong all the way up through the boom and is still getting it wrong all the way down. This is hardly something that leads us to have confidence in it.

The €18 billion, comprising €8 billion referred to yesterday and the €10 billion the Minister believes will have to be injected, is the same as the cost to create 105,000 new jobs are according to the Fine Gael plans in NewEra. This plan would set up jobs and infrastructure to make the country competitive on broadband, communications and independent energy production. That is the stark choice the Government has made. A sum of €18 billion has been allocated to the banks with nothing to the 450,000 people unemployed.

The Fine Gael plan was to have a good bank and a bad bank. It was not going to default on the bondholders or sovereign debt. It was a matter of telling the people who invested in the bank that they did so expecting to make a profit and believing it was a good thing to do. We are prepared to take some of the pain but they must take some of the pain too. In our plan the good bank remains responsible for depositors and the moneys owed to various central banks. The bad bank would be left with the bad loans and could sort this out with bondholders. Nobody would take all the pain but in the Government's deal the taxpayer takes all the pain and the bondholders walk away free. I do not know any investment that is 100% guaranteed. For the previous generation and the generations before they were the sayings "as safe as money in the bank" and "as safe as houses". Neither accounts for much any more.

The Government says the market will buck if the Fine Gael plan is adopted and our debt will be more difficult to pay. The market will see that we are taking a responsible approach. Our liabilities are less and, therefore, the markets will not take flight. The markets are the markets and will do what they do, namely, re-invest and turn around. We have seen on many occasions people going in and out of business.

The Government has engaged in the politics of fear in terms of our national debt. It has been confusing people with the moving target, trying to distract them from the realities of how we got here and who is responsible. I heard last night on radio a young woman say during "The Late Debate" that she wanted to see the culprits in this regard brought to book. Another person stated that while that might make us feel better, it would not cure the situation, which is akin to saying to the family of a murder victim that bringing the culprit to book would not bring back their loved one. This is about justice for the people and putting in place serious disincentives that will discourage people doing the same again.

The manner in which the Government is approaching this issue ensures there is nothing for bankers to fear. They can carry on regardless. Many of them remain in pole position. The boards of many of the banks have not been completely changed. Many of the same people remain involved. Mr. Maurice Keane, now a member of the board of Anglo Irish Bank is also involved in the selection of senior management for NAMA. What greater conflict of interest could there be than having a man who is a member of the board of a bank, who will be responsible for transferring billions of euro to NAMA, choosing the very people who will run NAMA? This is outrageous. The Government has learned nothing.

We must have a full inquiry of the events leading up to this, including the political decisions made and the relationships between politicians and Anglo Irish Bank, one that goes beyond the point when the guarantee was put in place. One can reach only one logical conclusion in terms of the Government's persistence in this regard, namely, this Government does not want to admit its mistake; it has too much political capital invested in this approach and will not acknowledge or accept it is wrong. It is not that we have not seen this before. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan, previously increased VAT, admitted subsequently it was costing €700 million but waited until the following budget to correct his mistake. What is the point of admitting one has made a mistake if one does not correct it? In this case, the Government will not even admit it has made a mistake.

There are other precedents in this regard such as in the area of health. The HSE has been a fiasco but the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, will not acknowledge this. Her collocated hospital plan, which was to be a fast track mechanism of another 1,100 beds into our system, has not alone not yielded a single bed but not one sod has been turned and not one brick for one of those hospitals has been put in place. I put it to the House that the Government's persistence with its hair-brained idea of NAMA, which is not, as has been outlined, receiving international support but is being questioned in several quarters, will cost the Irish taxpayer for generations to come, is grossly wrong and needs to be redressed. This concept whereby the taxpayer takes all the pain and everybody else gets off scot free is totally wrong.

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