Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)

At the outset, I apologise that the Minister is not present. I agree with the Deputy that this is one of the most bleak periods and episodes in what, it must be said, was a bleak period in Irish life. Second, on reading the materials for the response to the Deputy, I note the bulk of them come from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I make this point in advance as a caveat because it may be that the Deputy will seek to retable this issue for discussion with a specific focus on her concerns regarding the Department of Education and Science. Therefore, the Deputy should forgive me if the reply does not quite touch on the areas on which she sought a response. However, it is a response to the question that was sent to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I also note, by way of summary, that the materials pertaining to the sentencing of persons, the Probation Act and remand touch on some of the areas to which the Deputy referred.

On the issue of sentencing persons, there is no statutory power for a court to sentence a person to be detained in a Magdalen laundry or any other such institution as an alternative to imprisonment. However, it is known from the commission of inquiry into the reformatory and industrial school system in 1934 to 1936, known as the Cussen report, that judges were reluctant to send certain young women convicted of criminal offences to female prisons. Instead they would send the offender to a home conducted by a religious order, provided that the young woman and the religious order agreed. The Department does not have details of these cases and the records in question are court records.

On the issue of the application of the Probation Act, the Probation of Offenders Act provides that where a person is found to have committed a criminal act - I accept that the majority of the young women to whom the Deputy referred committed no such act - but the court is of the opinion that having regard to the age, health or mental condition of the person or because of extenuating circumstances it is inexpedient to inflict any punishment, the court can discharge the offender conditionally on the person entering into a recognisance to appear before it within a specified period not exceeding three years. In the case of District Court cases, no conviction was recorded unless the person did not comply with the conditions.

The research to date has established that in 1924 and subsequent years one of the conditions of probation that was imposed in a number of summary cases in Dublin was a requirement that the person reside in Our Lady's Home convent in Henrietta Street. This was not a Magdalen laundry per se although it did operate a laundry. The order in question received some payment from the then Department of Justice in the form of an annual grant to the Roman Catholic Prisoners (Female) Aid Society and subsequently directly to the home. A report exists on the conditions there and there also are references to probationers being sent to the Good Shepherd Convent, High Park, Drumcondra, the Good Shepherd Convent, Gloucester Street, the Sisters of Charity, Donnybrook and the Sisters of Mercy, Dún Laoghaire. In 1942 and 1943, 45 women were assigned by the courts to such homes under the Probation Act. It appears that these orders and arrangements were made by the courts without reference to any Department of State. The requirements of a probation order, including its duration, would be made known by the court to the offender. The records of such orders are court records.

As the Deputy is aware, the courts have the power to remand a person charged with criminal offences in custody pending trial and sentencing. Periods of remand normally are quite short. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is responsible for ensuring that there are places of detention which can be used for remand purposes. In October 1960, the then Minister for Justice approved St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum, Sean McDermott Street and Our Lady's Home in Henrietta Street, Dublin for use as a remand institutions for girls between the ages of 16 and 21 years pursuant to the Criminal Justice Act 1960. Payments were made by the Department in respect of such cases.

Prior to 1960, the only option for the courts was to remand such persons to Mountjoy female prison. Incomplete records are held by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and in the archives relating to payments made in respect of persons remanded to St. Mary Magdalen Asylum, Sean McDermott Street, Dublin. The Minister is happy to allow access to them in the normal way. However, inquiries made to date indicate that many older files were destroyed by flooding and that it is the practice to destroy support documentation relating to payments after seven years. It is understood that part of the arrangements with the two institutions was that those remanded were to have same rights and privileges as provided for remand prisoners in Part III of the Rules for the Government of Prisons 1947.

In general, in the time available and on behalf of the Minister, it is not inappropriate to describe the situation as grim. I should also add that all the indications are that the majority of persons in such religious institutions did not come through the criminal justice system at all but entered due to poverty, family or other circumstances. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has no records relating to such people.

The Deputy asked specifically about the position of the Department of Education and Science. The Minister for Education and Science has indicated that children who were sent to Magdalen laundries from institutions scheduled to the Residential Institutions Redress Act 2002 can be considered for financial redress if, as children, they were victims of abuse while resident in the laundries. However he does not intend to otherwise extend the redress scheme to such institutions. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform continues to liaise with the Department of Education and Science, given its co-ordinating role in the area of institutional child abuse and related matters.

On a personal level, I wish to add to this response. It is imperative that a humane approach be adopted to what was, as I noted the outset and as I am sure the Deputy will agree, probably the bleakest period in Irish history, when any sense of our humanity appears to have been put aside. I apologise if issues in respect of the Department of Education and Science were not dealt with in this reply. I hope that if, at a future date-----

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