Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)

It is good to see the Minister of State present for the debate because it is a very emotive issue and one which probably touches everybody but mostly the parents and children involved in the process. It is obvious that everybody speaking on the Bill has been contacted by and has engaged with people involved. The process may have failed them or they may have been very successful but we have all dealt with such people over the past year. This has become a very serious issue and one which has time implications, be it for the child to be adopted or for the many children who remain unadopted in some countries, whatever future lies ahead for them or for the families engaged in the process who want to do the right thing for all concerned and to have an opportunity to raise a child in a good solid home.

I welcome the Bill but I must question why it has taken us 14 years to get to this point. I accept that like myself the Minister of State was not a politician 14 years ago; perhaps he thought about it then. I did not read his script so I do not know whether he gave an explanation. I wonder why it is often years later that these matters are rushed through when they could have just been dealt with years ago and put to bed. So much time goes to waste here on unnecessary debate, time wasting, days lost and no sittings on Mondays or Friday. Issues such as this could be passed through the House and be put to bed once and for all. If we took action years ago, we might not have had the situation that we had for the past 12 months whereby many couples have awaited information and decisions because we would have had clarity and information. I do not understand a system that leaves a matter such as this to one side for years. Is it because it was not being pushed by anybody or a group did not exist? It is a shame that it is causing grief to many people in the year it is due to be finalised. However, I will not dwell on this point.

The Bill modifies the Hague Convention and that is great and will benefit everybody. It is the proper way to go and nobody here is speaking against it. I will speak about other issues that could be dealt with in the Bill but they have not been included. What parents have to go through in the adoption process is unreal and it is not right. For the majority of parents I met the process has taken four or five years. That is not right or fair, particularly if a child has been chosen and might be one and a half or two years old by the time the adoption process is completed. That child misses out on vital time to be given a good opportunity in life and might suffer in the long run because of it. The Government speaks about early childhood intervention but because of red tape and slow systems, and I accept this is the case not only in this country, some children get left for too long and suffer in the long run. This is a pity and will affect them growing up in Ireland and interacting with other children in school and could have a lasting impact for the rest of their lives. We have a duty to try to fix this and do something about it fast; not merely sign the convention years later but move to improve the services.

I do not see any logic for the process taking four or five years. I accept many get through it in three years but the majority of cases that I came across, and perhaps they contact us because it takes so long, are taking a long time. A couple can have a child in nine months without any training, parenting or advice and that is natural. It is only right that one must go through much scrutiny, courses, advice and interviews for adoption. However, it should not take four years and one's address should not matter. The service should be the same in Cork, Galway, Meath or Dublin. We need to establish targets on how long it will take and the Government and country should guarantee that it will take 18 months, two years or whatever time is agreed.

It is time measures were put in place so people know with what they are dealing. Many of those going down the road of adoption have tried other measures to have a child and have been unlucky for whatever reason. Many years will have already passed before they start the adoption process. All of sudden one is 32, 34, 38, 40 or 42; time flies very quickly and everyone loses if that time passes. We have to fix this. I hope in his concluding speech, or on another day, the Minister of State sets out a plan to improve these services because that is his job. He needs to push the Government to do so. The Minister of State has children and he knows the benefits of this. However, he needs to use his office to make this work and improve the situation for everybody. The child and the adopting family or single person and the community can only gain from this and it must be right.

We speak about Dáil reform and the delay in this Bill coming before the House is an example of where it is needed. Many parents have been left in limbo for the past year awaiting news. They expected good news in May, August, September and October and they were hopeful. However, in recent weeks they received bad news and were told the process of adopting from Vietnam was over. That seems very harsh and unfair. I question the motives and declarations for this. I accept a report highlighted major concerns. The report also mentioned the Government's failure to sign off on the Hague Convention so it is not totally exonerated. I wonder whether there is more to this; is there something that people cannot be told? It dragged on and on with interim agreements being discussed and not being discussed. In some cases the Government intended to reach agreement with the Vietnamese authorities but time ran out. If this is the case the Government should admit it and people should be told.

People are very hurt and let down and they have asked us what will happen to them. They were well into the process and some of them thought they had received a guarantee from the Minister of State last May. At least 20 couples thought they would get through the process. Where does this stand now? Is there any hope that something can be done to facilitate these adoptions? Is it too late? After we enact the Bill and ratify the Hague Convention will we stop dealing with the countries that have not ratified it? From what I have read in statements that is the case. However, other countries such as France, Spain, Italy and Canada have ratified the convention and still deal with Vietnam and other countries which have not ratified it. Where do we stand? If we will deal only with countries which have signed up to the convention what is the reason? Is it because it will save us time and resources into checking the procedures of those countries and that it will be easier to deal with the countries that have passed through the system and have been given the blessing because they signed up to the convention? Will we take the easy way out?

Many children in countries not signed up to the convention need help and want to be adopted and come to Ireland.

Many prospective parents have gone through the process, gone through all the hoops and the red tape, and knocked on all the doors to get certificates, information, bank statements and so on, yet the door was then shut in their faces. There is a duty to help those people. If we cannot help them in the country they originally chose, then we have to put them through the system quickly for another country. They should not be put to the back of the queue, because that is not fair and they do not deserve it. I ask that the Minister of State address this issue in his closing speech. Things have changed, so there is a duty to clarify the situation for those prospective parents.

I note that many of the children's rights organisations have commended the Bill, and there is nobody out there who claims it is a bad thing. However, there are concerns about what is missing from the Bill. It does not deal with provisions for post-adoption services. Deputy Shatter and other colleagues in the Labour Party have brought up this issue, as well as groups such as Barnardos, the Children's Rights Alliance and so on. They have asked this question. It is a golden opportunity to have a full discussion about the services beforehand and especially afterwards. The services provided afterwards affect the child that has been adopted. There needs to be follow-on procedures, and every service should be put in place and not left to chance so that we have the right address and the child receives the correct services after adoption. It is a very delicate situation.

This Bill does not refer to the cost of all this, but adoption can be a very costly procedure. I know couples who remortgaged houses to get the money to go through this process. I am not saying that is the Government's fault, but it is very costly for some people. If people are out of pocket because they were hoping to adopt from Vietnam and that door is now closed, we have to find some way to help them continue the process if they cannot afford to do so. The Minister of State should examine this.

The Bill does not clearly deal with the transition measures. What will happen in the short term? The Minister of State briefly touched on it, but did not clarify matters. There is now a grey area here, following recent announcements from his Department. The Bill fails to address the children who are not eligible for adoption in Ireland, and there are more than 2,000 children who have been in foster care for a significant number of years. I have dealt with only one person affected by this, but I know there are many more out there. This Bill does not seem to talk about the issue. Other countries have brought in new policies to deal with children who have been abused, neglected and so on. What does our Constitution say about that? Is there a plan for a referendum to make the change to a more modern Ireland? This Bill might have provided a chance to have this debate and to put those things in motion.

Many constituents have come to me, both couples and single people. A young lady living in Athboy, County Meath, was concerned because the Bill fails to provide for sole applicants to adopt, and merely perpetrates the existing extraordinary circumstances required, whereby sole applicants are permitted only as an exception to proceed for assessment. I would like clarity on this issue. I accept there are groups out there who say we should not have sole parent adoption. What is the Minister of State's view? Why were things not made easier for this type of applicant? Deputy McHugh also raised this issue. What formed the Minister of State's decision making process?

The other big issue is the grandfather clause. The Hague convention is about what is best for the child, and surely a grandfather clause makes sense. If a parent is lucky enough to adopt a child from Ethiopia, Bulgaria, Romania or wherever, it makes sense that if everything went well and they would like to adopt again, that the parents would go back to the same country. It would be for the benefit of the child, and it might be the child's relative or a community member. That should be facilitated, but it is not clarified in the Bill. If we want to do what is right for the child, there is a duty on us to fix this on Committee Stage.

One of the groups involved in this area suggested that parents who adopt a child from a foreign country should be made aware if a second child in the foreign family becomes available. There does not seem to be any formal procedure at the moment for that. I am not an expert in this area, and I do not know what kind of contact would continue when somebody is adopted from a family. However, surely it would make sense to put in place a system whereby a family is notified if a sibling of the adopted child becomes available for adoption. These children could be given a chance to get to know each other under the one roof. It cannot be too difficult to arrange this.

The timing of this is wrong, as is the amount of work people have to do. There are various reasons for that, one of which is a lack of social workers. What is the plan to fix that? If we are short of them, then what do we do to get more? I do not think it is okay to just leave this problem alone. What is wrong with the system when people drop out of it? Do we talk to them afterwards? Do we follow up the case and see what went wrong? Do we know how long it takes in other countries? There is anecdotal evidence that it does not take nearly as long as here. Has that been checked out? Have Department officials and the Minister of State found out what happens in the UK, France and the US and decided that we will try to achieve what they have done? If it turns out that it takes four years in those countries as well, perhaps there is a reason for it and Ireland is doing fine. However, the Minister of State and his officials should provide us with that information. There is something wrong and it needs to be fixed. I accept it probably affects only a few thousand people every year, but that is no reason not to put things right.

If a couple have been through one adoption, I do not understand why it takes so long to go through a second one. In some cases it takes as long as the first adoption, and that should not be the case. The couple have obviously passed the various tests and if their child is doing well, how much more can there be to do? I am not trying to simplify things, but is there a reason to go through the whole process again? A colleague from the Labour Party mentioned that couples have to go through another course in some places, but not in others. Standards do not seem to be followed everywhere else.

Is there any effort made to encourage parents who adopt abroad to look at home first? There is very little adoption in Ireland, and very few children under the current rules in the Constitution would be put up for adoption. We need to examine that, because many children in Ireland could benefit from being in more stable homes.

Adoption should be a positive experience, but it often turns into a cruel, harsh and slow process. That is a shame and we have to fix it. Many children in my own community in Navan have been adopted from all over the world. They have been given a great opportunity and they are doing very well. The more of that we can have, the better. Many couples want to be parents and are unlucky enough not to be able to have children for whatever reason. They need the State to step in, to help them and to make sure it happens. We can learn from other countries in this respect.

There are children taken into care by the HSE and taken away from their parents. There is always a reason for it, but the process does not always seem 100% clear. I have been involved in a couple of cases, and it is a grey area where information is always difficult to get. The parents involved, some of who are not highly educated, are not always treated fairly by the system. When they do something wrong or do not behave as good parents there is often a reason. In these circumstances, one has a sense that official bodies close down, decide the parent or parents have failed and treat them badly as a result. Sometimes parents need help and guidance and although it is provided in some cases, in others the appropriate assistance, advice and legal representation in cases before the courts are not provided. We have a duty to recognise these factors and offer assistance as opposed to casting guilty people aside and ignoring their concerns and feelings. The State must do all in its power to try to reunite parents with children.

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