Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)

The part-time cleaners in the courts, the gardaí, the tip staff and clerical staff in the courts will all be taking the hit. The judges will have a choice. They will receive what may be termed a "sweetie-pie" letter from the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan, whenever he recovers, suggesting that they might think about making a contribution to the State's coffers.

We are all aware of the provision in the Constitution stating judges should never be put under pressure by politicians who are or are not in power regarding influencing their judgments. They are meant to be independent and should act independently. We have a Judiciary which has always acted without fear or favour towards any politician, political party or group of politicians, which is as it should be.

The protection afforded to the Judiciary in the Constitution against their pay being arbitrarily reduced is to stop an over-weaning Executive punishing a judge because he or she made a judgment which goes against its wishes, following which it may seek to restrain him or her. We are not discussing such a situation, which is what the Constitution provides for. We are examining a situation whereby judges - at least 50% of whom share this general view - no less than those who work with them in the public service are willing to take their share of the burden of pain and adjustment which has to be taken to get us out of the economic mess created by Fianna Fáil and its banker and developer friends. That appears to be the position of a majority of our judges.

It is wrong that there is no provision in the Bill to explicitly encourage judges, as the Labour Party amendment seeks to do and is therefore perfectly constitutional, to consider their position and the appropriate response from people who are very well paid, looked after and appointed. Judges are a core part of the democratic functioning of our State. Nonetheless, they ought to share in the burden of adjustment given that they are well paid and looked after in terms of their pay and pensions.

The Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan, and the Taoiseach have suggested that the Government has received opinions from the Attorney General that it is not possible to touch the pay of judges. The Labour Party amendment seeks to acknowledge that, nevertheless I have outlined the reasons why I believe judges' pay can be addressed. This is belling the cat. The Minister of State is very willing to be tough on contract workers and low-paid part-time workers and has said how good such a tough approach is. However, there is a softly-softly approach to the Judiciary.

There is a simple remedy open to the Government, that is, to legislate for this measure and allow any judge who wishes to do so to take a legal challenge. They, more than almost every other person Irish society, are well-equipped to launch a legal challenge to overturn a pay cut for judges, as there is for everybody else in the public service. If that happens, we will then have a definitive view on the constitutional position regarding the proper protection of judges from an overbearing Government seeking to interfere in judicial functions.

It is possible to have judges take the same general terms and conditions which apply to other workers, such as income tax and capital tax. They are not treated as special individuals rather, they are treated the same as the general body of citizens. The Government has run away from this issue. If it is put into law judges can, if they so wish, contest it. If such a contest leads to a ruling in favour of the Judiciary, we will need to amend the Constitution. However, that is not necessary. It was cowardice on the part of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan, that he refused to allow an opt-in measure for judges in this Bill that would allow them to demonstrate what is true regarding a majority of them, namely, that they are prepared to share the same burden imposed by this Bill on their fellow citizens employed in the public service.

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