Brian Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)

I will deal with Deputy Gilmore's points. His first point was about the Department of Finance being exclusively responsible for the programme for reform of the public service. This is not a correct assumption. A Cabinet committee has been established of which I am the chairman and this committee is supported by a steering group of Secretaries General and the office for the programme for transforming the public service which is based in the Department of the Taoiseach. This office works closely with the Department of Finance which has responsibility for the public service. The Department deals with all industrial relations issues and with human resource issues and it has the expertise to do so. A second Secretary General post is in charge of that part of the Department. It is autonomous in respect of its agenda of public service interaction with the trade unions and staff representatives. This is where such expertise is concentrated. It is not a question of any one Department having exclusive responsibility as this situation requires a collaborative team effort across Departments as much as across the trade union movement and other organisations providing public services. That is my answer to the Deputy's first point.

Second, this discussion, the process of reform and a number of ongoing initiatives, outlined in the detailed reply I gave, should be viewed in the context of the comprehensive review under the auspices of the OECD, which has expertise in this area. It conducted a comparative analysis of how public services are delivered and the strengths and weakness of the Irish public service and a fair assessment was given by the organisation in this respect, which acknowledged areas where things are being done quite well in all the circumstances and areas where things could be improved. That is what one would expect to see in an organisation comprising 350,000 people providing services across a range of organisations, Departments and so on. Third, the task force was set up immediately in order that we could have a beginning, middle and end on how to proceed with this.

Fourth, we are in the process of achieving a full buy-in from everybody to proceed on this basis, in addition to what has been sought to be done in the absence of comprehensive agreement on a redeployment package. This aspect is necessary to achieve what is envisaged. We need to take practical steps and hard-nosed negotiations have to take place at local and institutional level, in our hospitals and in the education and other sectors. One has to get on with that business.

The discussions will build on the solid work in place, some of which is being proceeded with, as I outlined in my reply, and address the wider issues upon which there is not yet agreement and on which we need agreement if we are to do what has to be done. The financial realities dictate that we have to get on with this process and it is better to do in a collaborative and agreed way rather than taking other approaches, which get into the industrial relations process, etc.

The second question raised by the Deputy related to documentation. Let us remind ourselves of the basis of the current discussions. We have indicated what we believe is required to get a contribution from public pay and pensions to meet the immediate financial budgetary problem we have. The suggestion was made by the trade union movement that it believed other policy options are available to us that will achieve the savings. In the context of 2010, I am concentrating on getting those savings. I also believe that getting them on their own without a commitment to permanent structural change in the public service means we will come back to this issue again and again and, therefore, it is better to do it in a comprehensive way both in terms of the short-term requirement and what we will have to do in any event to get a public service in place that is fit for purpose and commensurate with the resources available from the taxpayer. That will involve a serious and accelerated organisational change programme across the service.

The discussions arose in that context and they are continuing. A request was made to the Government, as one of the parties to the discussions, to give a more succinct document, in addition to all the available documents, on the issues that would be required and to indicate the Government's ultimate objectives in these areas. That has been done. Until those talks are over, I do not want to take a unilateral decision on what I do with documents that are under discussion, as the Deputy will appreciate, having been a trade unknown negotiator in a previous life. He can take it the document is broadly consistent with the existing documentation, which has formed the basis of our approach to date, but until those discussions are concluded I am not free to decide on the floor of the House about those issues. I want the public service unions to reflect on that and the discussions are resuming today. Let them take place. We will know the outcome in the next week or so.

The Deputy asked why I did not stop the strike. I am not in a position to stop a strike but I am able to outline the Government's position. I await from the trade union side the full range of policy options that will meet the requirements of the situation as we have outlined them. That discussion resumes today. There has been a great deal of information sharing to explain what are the cost issues. That interaction with the Department of Finance and the public service would be the norm before people come forward with their full position in order that we are at least on the same page in terms of what certain initiatives may provide in the context of the figures, whatever about ultimately getting agreement. Let us all know what are the common facts at least. That is ongoing.

I have said I am open to looking at policy options if they help us get to where we need to be. I am also convinced we need permanent structural change going forward and we need a commitment to this. On that basis, we are having discussions. I cannot guarantee the Deputy an agreed outcome but everyone is acting in good faith. I accept everyone's bona fides and like any negotiation, it will be successfully concluded or otherwise, but we will make a serious effort because I am sure everyone is of the view that it is better to find an agreed basis to go forward.

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