Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)

I welcome the opportunity to say a few words on this Bill. As with the Minister, I come from a Border county whose residents were, for many years, extremely well aware of money laundering, cigarette and drug smuggling and all sorts of ways of raising money. It was impossible to find out how this money was used or lodged.

The Bill is being introduced because of European legislative requirements. I welcome this because, as an island and small country, we cannot deal with money laundering or any of the major crimes without the support and involvement of other countries and the structures of the European Union. The Bill is to consolidate all the State's anti-money-laundering legislation in a single statute. It increases the obligations on a wide range of legal persons, including credit and financial institutions, lawyers and accountants. This is crucial. The Bill gives the Garda the power to enter premises and deal with the circumstances that arise as advised.

Tax advisers and all sorts of other individuals are involved in the money market and it is important that they be encompassed by the legislation. I note from comments that have been made that car and boat dealers, jewellers, art dealers and others will be subject to monitoring because all sorts of enterprises are used by criminals to put money away for the future. I welcome the recent strong activities of the Garda, Customs and Excise and all of the relevant bodies and how they dealt with cigarette smuggling issues and other matters in recent times. Until we get those under control, we, as a nation, are losing a lot of taxation from which we should benefit.

Before contributing on the Bill I attended a meeting dealing with the tax differential between both sides of the Border and the massive outflow of goods that results from money leaving this country. Money laundering is an extremely serious matter. We have seen cases of people buying property abroad. At one time I was in an eastern European country on an Oireachtas trip and we ended the day in what seemed to be an Irish pub. However, it was clear to me that it was being used for other purposes. Those are the type of things that were happening. I hope that when it is enacted the Bill will ensure that justice is meted out to the people who are involved in such crime and that they are given proper sentences.

I agree with Deputy Durkan's point on the level of fines proposed in the Bill. I spoke recently to a small farmer who, as a result of an animal health problem, failed to comply with some regulations. He was not fined through a court process but a deduction of €11,000 was made in his payments in future years. I have come across many other farmers who were involved in infringements beyond their control and they lost all their payments for the years in question. In that context, we must revisit the imposition of a fine of €5,000 for what is, in effect, the sabotage of our nation.

The Minister referred to the seriousness of the issue and outlined that, on indictment, an offender who is found guilty could be jailed for up to 14 years, be fined or both. A presumption is made in the Bill that a person knew or believed that the property was the proceeds of criminal conduct or that it was probably the case. The difficulty in this situation is that we have to use the word "probably". There seems to be less effort to trace property than to pursue a person who does not pay an element of tax. There is no problem in following taxation right down the line. That has been evident in the past ten years in terms of amnesties and other issues. People have had to go back several years to prove their innocence; otherwise, they were considered guilty. Why is it that we seem to have difficulty dealing with persons who are laundering money from illegal endeavours? That provision must be strengthened.

I welcome the Minister's reference to the fact that he is considering Committee Stage amendments following the representations made to him since the Bill was published in July. I am not as legally educated as my colleague, Deputy Charles Flanagan, but I understand that it is vital for the Minister to go into the committee process with an open mind and that he take into account the representations that have been made to him.

This is critical legislation. It reminds me somewhat of the Bill required to transpose the nitrates directive. It took us 12 years to put that through the system and in the end the negotiations were held literally in court rather than in private. We did not get the best deal on that occasion. We seem to have a habit of leaving things until the last minute. Once again, it is clear from the information available that the Bill has antagonised some of our European colleagues. The European Commission is to take legal action against member states suspected of violating European law. It is obvious that we have not dealt with the matter as we should have. I hope we get it through the system with reasonable speed so that we meet our European obligations.

We should not forget that without Europe we would be in a very poor situation. As one who went out publicly and campaigned for the Lisbon treaty on both occasions, I get annoyed when I see the lax attitude we adopt to dealing with issues coming from Europe. Without the support of the European Central Bank structure, we would not be able to get money at the current rate of interest. During the previous period of economic difficulty, we had our own currency and interest rates climbed to 23%. I paid 23% for long-term money. We have obligations to try to address matters in a timely fashion in line with requests from Europe. That does not mean we have to bow down to Europe, but it is evident that our Ministers have agreed with European powers that the Bill should be enacted. We should be better at dealing with the issues that we are requested to address.

When one considers what has happened in the past, such as money laundering and other criminal activity, it is clear that it is conducted on an international basis. The Minister referred to the ease of electronic banking transfers. It is important to remember that 30 years or 40 years ago there was no problem dealing with Libya and other areas. People could get what they wanted and find a way to do it. Crime crosses borders and oceans. It is important to work with our European counterparts and others to ensure that the tightest possible legislation is in place to curtail and minimise money laundering and such activities in so far as that is possible. Having lived in a border region for all my life - I will not say how long that is - I am not so stupid to think we can ever curtail all such activity. It is our duty as legislators to ensure that the law is as tight as possible. It is also our duty to ensure the personnel are in place to implement it.

From a farming point of view, a Bill was brought through this House by a former Minister for Agriculture, former Deputy Michael O'Kennedy, to deal with the meat and bonemeal issue. I believe that was in 1989 but, unfortunately, the personnel were not put in place to police that area and the provender industry continued using it. It was not until bovine spongiform encephalopathy, BSE, was discovered and a great deal of damage done that it realised that the legislation was not implemented.

We are good at doing that in this country. We bring in legislation and make a big fuss about the fact that we are doing the right thing. As far as speed cameras are concerned, we brought in legislation and the only areas speed cameras were ever introduced, and it worked, was in the north east. I believe there were three speed cameras moved from box to box but that did not happen in other areas. Six years later I believe the provision is now being put in place. When this law is enacted the Minister should ensure that we have the personnel in place to implement it.

We recently learned that many of our senior and possibly our best gardaí are taking early retirement because of their concerns about what might happen to their pension lump sums. We must ensure those people are replaced and that the Border area in particular has a sufficient number of gardaí to ensure everything is done to minimise crime.

I say that for another reason also. We had a bomb defused in Forkhill and another in Donegal town. Other criminal activities have taken place that put our country in danger. It is important that the people who are engaged in those activities have their funds taken from them by whatever means, be it by addressing the cigarette smuggling problem or whatever.

I will never forget visiting the home of the late SDLP councillor, John Fee, who was left for dead at the bottom of his own avenue. Fortunately, he survived. He told me he knew a lot of information about the people who did that to him but he did not hold anything against them because they were sent to do it and they had to do it. He also told me that the people who were sent to do that to him will try to find other means, even though there is peace in the country, to fund their lifestyle. Poor John has since passed away but the situation is still relevant in that there are people whose only interest is in having a high lifestyle by whatever means. The CAB and other groups have done a wonderful job in many areas. I support them. I support this legislation and I hope that whatever amendments are necessary to make it as workable as possible will be dealt with on Committee Stage and that the personnel will be provided to ensure the objectives of the Bill are implemented, not just at Irish level but at European level and worldwide.

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