Michael Kennedy (Dublin North, Fianna Fail)

Maybe there are no rich people down there, but there are many horsey people who have had substantial incomes.

We need honesty in this debate. The people no longer deserve to be given false hope that they will not pay tax and they will not suffer wage reductions. Some €4 billion is a substantial figure. Those without a job who I have met, who have come into my office and clinics, tell me that those on high incomes and those who have jobs should be willing to share the pain. That is a reasonable proposition in the context of where we are today. It is more than reasonable to ask anyone who has a permanent job with a pension, whether a civil servant, a public representative or otherwise, to make some contribution to the State's finances.

In terms of the budget, I want to state clearly that the less well-off in society should be protected. I have no difficulty in saying that the old age pension should be left untouched. The same goes for the carers and the less well-off in society. I make no bones about that. I have said it at our parliamentary party meetings.

However, those of us who are lucky enough to have jobs must take a little bit of the pain in the national interest. On the suggestion that we run a budget deficit next year of over €20 billion, it is bad enough that this year there will be a deficit of €25 billion, €26 billion or whatever the outturn. On suggesting we continue that for the future, Deputy Lee knows international bankers better than, or at least as well as, I do and they will not be as accommodating, in either providing the finance or in giving us a reasonable interest rate, which they are currently doing. He will be aware that all of the international bodies which rate the credit worthiness of countries-----

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