Billy Timmins (Wicklow, Fine Gael)

That would be subject to a freedom of information request.

Lessons can be learned from the first Lisbon referendum campaign. We should have learned them from the Nice referendum campaigns. Many people had legitimate concerns. Nevertheless, it is probable that more people - although not the largest percentage - voted for the Lisbon treaty than any other EU treaty. All of the political establishment, Government and Opposition, were blasé. We knew we had got things wrong in the Nice referendum but we assumed people would vote "Yes" because Irish people have a positive and strong sentiment about our involvement in Europe. They realise that Europe has been good for Ireland, economically and socially. Most of our progressive legislation has emanated from Brussels. The financial support we received in the 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s helped us to create the infrastructure which assisted in the creation of the Celtic tiger. Today, emergency funding, stimulus packages and access to funding from the European Central Bank all benefit the country.

The Oireachtas sub-committee which was established after the first Lisbon referendum based its sittings on the findings of the Milward Brown research. That research, while not inaccurate in the issues it raised, did not fully reflect the broader view of two aspects of the vote. First, people did not understand what Europe was about and, second, they did not know where Europe is going. One of our weaknesses is that no one can say where the European train will stop. My own view is that Lisbon is the final stop, with the exception of some enlargements. Institutional reform has taken place. There was always a fear of creeping federalisation and of a united states of Europe, which was never going to be the case and never will be. I do not believe there is the will or desire in Europe to create such a bloc. The only desire is to pool sovereignty where it is beneficial to everyone concerned.

The EU is probably the greatest example of a democratic institution on the planet. It is much more democratic than the Oireachtas, which is very undemocratic. Deputy Breen and I have been in opposition for a number of years, although this will, I hope, change. Even Deputies on the Government side of the House have very little input into legislation. This is evidenced by reports of last night's meeting of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party, where many members favoured a particular course of action while the Minister decided on another. We must be more democratic, regardless of what side of the House one is on. Many good suggestions have come from Fine Gael, Labour and other parties but they are never adopted. One side does not have a monopoly of wisdom. We must look at amending our system so that everyone can have an input. The Oireachtas appears to consist of the Government and nothing else. People become detached from the process:

Full many a flower is born to blush unseen,

And waste its sweetness of the desert air.

I am sure the Minister, Deputy Martin, remembers that from his teaching days in Cork. People become weary making good suggestions because none is adopted.

Europe has been good for Ireland and I am glad the Minister has made a commitment to look at EU directives. One of my parliamentary colleagues expressed his concern to me at this weakness. We cannot simply leave the Lisbon debate and move on. We must engage with people continually and see how we can make them more involved.

I am glad to hear the Minister is committed to developing the citizens' initiative. When Fine Gael planned our recent referendum campaign, we looked at the weaknesses in the Lisbon treaty. We wondered how to explain the citizens' initiative and we were relieved that the "No" side did not home in on it. There is no structure to it or definition of how it will be done. Will it be possible to gather one million signatures or e-mails? Based on the number of e-mails Fine Gael received regarding the Government's NAMA proposals, it may not be too difficult.

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