Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important legislation. It is sad that it had to be introduced and is once again a sign of failure. It reminds me of the culture in our current structure. We had the banks, the builders and all the cronies living in the one tent, so to speak. The banks' representatives came into the Committee of Public Accounts and gave a full briefing to the effect that they were sound and that their position was beyond question. That view was backed up by the regulator, the Central Bank and others, yet we all know what happened a few months later. We have not been given the full facts, and even the Committee of Public Accounts was unable to get that information out of them. They sat in the Committee of Public Accounts and told it what they wanted the people to believe.

We are now trying to deal with the FÁS situation but, sadly, that organisation, which has a right to be proud in many ways, is now on the front pages of our newspapers being shown in the worst possible light. We read that pass grades were given to failed FÁS students. It is a disgrace that a national organisation should allow that to happen. That story only came to light because people were willing to impose the necessary pressure, both in this House and outside it, to get that information and ensure that everybody is on an equal footing. I will come back to that matter later.

In her contribution yesterday the Minister stated that FÁS is a key agency, and we all agree with that when we have up to 450,000 people unemployed. I accept the Minister stated the number was somewhat less but, unfortunately, a number of factories have closed since then and major difficulties have arisen in my own Border region as far as the retail trade and so on is concerned. We must face the fact that we will be dealing with a population of some 450,000 who have no job and who are not likely to have a job in the near future unless we do something about it. FÁS is an important part of the fight against unemployment and ensuring that workers do not become distant from the labour market, as the Minister said.

The Minister also said that the Bill is part of her response to ensure that FÁS is fit for purpose and operates to the highest standards of corporate governance. One must ask how this situation came about. Would this Bill be before the House today if it had not been for senior personnel in my party and others bringing this issue to light and making sure that the wrongs were dealt with?

The Minister further stated:

At present, there is considered to be a lack of clarity around the accountability of the director general of FÁS to the Oireachtas. In order to resolve this matter, I have included provisions in the Bill which set out quite clearly the accountability of the director general to the Committee of Public Accounts ...

That is the reason I raised the issue of banks at the outset. It is wrong to have a structure in place where the only place we can deal with a problem is in the Committee of Public Accounts and not on the floor of this House. I have made that argument in terms of the National Roads Authority but especially the Health Service Executive and other organisations. We cannot allow this House to be side-lined, where there cannot be accountability on the floor of this Dáil, where the Minister who hands over the money of hard pressed taxpayers to an organisation such as FÁS is not answerable in this House. That is something we should not allow to continue indefinitely.

The Minister went on to say that wrongdoing can take place in large organisations in both the public and private sector. That is a simple fact in the current situation.

The Bill allows the Minister to dismiss board members. Those board members have already been chosen by her. As the previous speaker said, we have gone from a situation where in the past the board members were nominated by the relevant organisations working with FÁS to a situation where they will now be nominated by the Minister. They must have the relevant experience and competence, but is the only relevance that they are a cumann member or something like that?

The Bill states that the Minister can sack a board member who is not adequately performing but it does not state how she can deal with FÁS executives who are the people dealing with taxpayers' money. When we already have a record of the scandal in FÁS it is important that the Minister re-examine that situation and that we ensure that the Bill gives the Minister, whoever that is, the power to deal with a problem as it arises, be it to do with board members or senior executives.

I do not want anyone to get the idea that I or my colleagues in Fine Gael do not realise the great work done by FÁS. It has been a tremendous organisation. It has worked with community groups, the unemployed and older people to try to get them back into work and so on. All the people at local level who have done such good work must not be tainted or damaged by the serious incident involving the head of FÁS and the wrongful passing of people in their exams. The local schemes have not only helped people back to work and given people something to live for but they have also done tremendous work in the local community. I can only think of the graveyards and cemeteries they have cleaned and villages which they have reinvigorated. They have certainly done much great work with the sick and elderly and in other areas. We should recognise that.

The apprenticeship scheme has also been invaluable and in this downturn the organisation has done its best to ensure those apprentices in the system were given an opportunity to finish their schemes. I know there were some difficulties but a great effort was made by FÁS nonetheless. Many elderly people are now using computers because of FÁS training schemes and this must also be recognised.

I got a phone call earlier from somebody who was very worried about the information released here. I was told in no uncertain terms that this is not an isolated incident of certificates being given out or training being done in such a way. There must be proper supervision by independent people of how some of these training structures are maintained. I urge the Minister to ensure the issue is considered sympathetically so that in this extremely serious point in the State's history, the people who get training and are awarded certificates are entitled to them only after proper training from qualified people. God knows there are enough qualified teachers out there to do this who cannot get jobs, and such people of the highest standard could be used to facilitate perfect training.

I will comment on the accountability of the Minister. The former Minister in this area, Deputy Harney, her husband and six others flew to Florida in the Government jet, spent money and had tickets reserved in case the Government jet was unavailable. It was only when the ruckus arose that the €35,000 paid out for unused tickets was reclaimed. It is not hard to understand how people who saw this going on at the highest level in our State thought that if the Minister could do it, why could they not do so. I listened to the Minister, Deputy Harney, speak on health issues and how strict she has been with services. To learn through the freedom of information system how she dealt with matters in her own way makes one absolutely sick.

That was followed by the ending of Mr. Molloy's work in FÁS. At this stage we are not sure if he was pushed or went voluntarily. We are told the €1.1 billion and other money was a result of his voluntary departure. If that had happened in a commercial business such as those I have dealt with through the years, somebody who mishandled his position like he had would have gone out on his ear with nothing only his last week's wages, and he would have been very lucky to get them.

We must look at how the public sector deals with personnel and how they are being paid. Why is Professor Drumm getting a €70,000 bonus and for what is it being awarded? Is it for the great work of closing Monaghan General Hospital? I do not want to speak on that issue or I will get sick again. This is not a case of people receiving unfair benefits - we saw in the banking sector that a man got off with €1 million when he left his post that was meant to be repaid but has never been given back.

Decisions have been made at the highest level and my colleagues, including my party leader, have tried to get the full information on how they were decided but different stories come out each week. The benefits included €1.1 million, a car and more for a person who mismanaged one of the greatest organisations in this country.

The Minister and Tánaiste has a chance at this point to bring a Bill through this House - we are only on Second Stage - and amend it or accept amendments from the Opposition or anybody else. She must ensure the Bill will hold the pertinent people responsible and that the Minister of the day will be able to deal with questions across this floor and make an organisation of this size answerable to this House and the taxpayers who pay the bills.

The release of information relating to the luxury travel of FÁS executives came from board minutes. That is what led to the severance package. If there had not been any pressure, the issue may never have come about. We must ensure we have structures in place to hold FÁS personnel and the board responsible and can deal with a matter if the need arises.

The Minister indicated that wrongdoing can take place in large organisations in both the public and private sectors even where proper internal financial control structures are put in place. It is against this background that she also considers it important to include provisions in the Bill that would protect bona fide whistleblowers from reporting wrongdoing at any level. The person I spoke with earlier today is scared stiff that I would say anything that could link that person to some of the issues I would like to put on the record of this House. That person is afraid it might affect her opportunities to get work in future or in doing business. The whistleblowing issue is vital and there should be cover for whistleblowers so they will not finish as victims rather than the good guys who let us know that wrong reports have been given, money has been misspent or anything else.

I wish the Bill well for the rest of its journey through the House and I hope the Minister will listen to what has been said on Second Stage. I hope she will also table the amendments necessary to ensure it works better. I further hope she will ensure that when the new board is appointed, FÁS will be restored to its former glories and will again enjoy the level of respect in which it was previously held.

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