Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)

When I was a child I was warned that gambling was all right provided one gambled with one's own money and that one was given good odds. There are no odds in favour of the taxpayer in this proposal. We are in this mess because the banks and the bankers were gambling with borrowed money, contrary to any gambler's instinct. One never gambles with borrowed money. Now when things have gone wrong, the taxpayer is expected to pick up the tab.

NAMA is a massive gamble and the odds do not stack up. As my colleague asked, what is the value of property? A total of 36% of the outstanding debts are in land. What is the value of a piece of land on the outskirts of some rural village? What assets are in Anglo Irish Bank? I will ask the Minister for Finance when he comes to the House. He is our shareholder. He should know at this stage the up-to-date situation regarding Anglo Irish Bank and all its debts, including the type of debts and the type of properties.

Before this House is asked to vote on this proposal he should use Anglo Irish Bank as an example of how this particular proposal will work. I ask for an explanation. It is proposed that one State agency will take over debts from another State agency and then pay that State agency back some money of less value than what was being taken over. Anglo Irish Bank will give over land and property to NAMA and NAMA will give money back to Anglo. A significant gap will exist. We are informed that Anglo is bust. The taxpayer has already paid in approximately €4 billion or €5 billion. There will be another shortfall of at least €7 billion or €8 billion in Anglo alone. I ask someone to explain how we will make up this huge gap in Anglo. We have not been told by the Minister.

Does he intend to wrap up Anglo or will he endeavour to see Anglo trade itself out and, if so, how will it trade itself out of such a massive debt which has been imposed? We have already ploughed money into Anglo but the reason for which escapes me - it is a zombie bank. We have put billions of euro into Anglo. We will be taking all this property from Anglo, we will put it into NAMA and then put money back into Anglo, but there will be a massive shortfall. How is it going to trade itself out? That is a simple question for the Minister for Finance to explain to the House. Can he do so?

Deputies from the other side of the House lecture us about loyalty to the State and suggest that we should march up those steps and support the NAMA proposal. However, they will walk up those steps blindly and land a generation with a massive debt. It will not be my generation or that of the Acting Chairman, but that of our children and grandchildren. They will have a massive debt around their necks, but the Minister and the Government cannot explain to us in simple language how it will work. It is based on assumptions, including that the value of property has bottomed out, which is not true. All the leading experts would tell the Minister that it has not bottomed out. What is the value? There is talk of handing over €54 billion for loans of €77 billion. Why has the Government picked €54 billion? Why not €64 billion or €44 billion? There is no basis to €54 billion.

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