Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)

I congratulate Deputy Seamus Kirk on his elevation to the important constitutional office of Ceann Comhairle. I have no doubt that the fairness which he displayed in another place will be found here as well. I wish him and his family every success in his important role.

The Labour Party views this as an important Bill and the party will not oppose it. However, we will table significant amendments on Committee Stage and I hope the Minister of State, whom I know is interested in this area, will accept them. We acknowledge the Bill contains significant and important sections which will hopefully lead to a re-orientation and re-focusing of the role of FÁS with regard to the provision of training and important courses and certification. In light of what Deputy O'Dowd has revealed to the House, it is time for a complete overhaul of FÁS. The information is mind-boggling and staggering and is a source not just of controversy, but also of deep worry. Deputy O'Dowd referred to certification and to examinations which are the passport to employment. The certification awarded is relied on to indicate that a candidate has the necessary skills and expertise in that area. Therefore, it is very important. That deflates my notion of it, as Deputy Varadkar rightly stated.

This idea originated from my colleague Deputy Ruairí Quinn who was a very innovative Minister and who had much to put forward in this area back in the 1980s, including the idea of the National Employment and Training Authority. Perhaps that is the correct name that should be used given the context and perhaps we should return to the original focus and identity of what Deputy Quinn had in mind because we seem to have strayed away significantly from the very ethos and basis upon which FÁS has grown.

I listened carefully to what Deputy O'Dowd said. In the context of what has been revealed to the Dáil, I call upon the Minister of State to investigate thoroughly the contents of what has been revealed this evening. I was not aware of it but Deputy O'Dowd has been given information and there should be an investigation in order that the Minister of State is in a position to advance the situation in this regard.

Several recommendations and sections in the Bill which are important have been included. I am opposed to the proposed number of members of the board. It is important that the number of members of the board is reduced. I am opposed to the proposal to have 11 members on the board, a number far to high and unwieldy. While it is a reduction, it is still way out of kilter with the number necessary to run an organisation. One can never get down to the meat of a decision when one is going around the table and waiting to get consensus to secure an important objective.

It amazes me that the election of a worker director has not been accommodated in this context. One might say one would expect such a statement from the Labour Party but the truth is far from it. The participation of worker directors in Bord na Móna could withstand the scrutiny and oversight of anyone who wants to independently or objectively examine the situation. A colleague of mine at the time, Councillor Mark Nugent, rose to the positions of vice chairman and chairman of the board at a very critical time, as Deputy O'Dowd may recall. He was not afraid to make the hard decisions to ensure Bord na Móna remained a commercial operation when it was going through a traumatic time and he was the workers' representative. However, he was a person of great guile and integrity and knew that hard decisions had to be made and did not shirk his responsibility. Therefore, I advocate that a workers' representative should be accommodated in this regard. I realise the Minister of State, Deputy Callery, is involved and to reduce the number of board members is a step in the right direction at least, and I accept as much.

I cannot understand why the relevant joint Oireachtas committee does not have a role in scrutinising the appointments. Otherwise we would have the old "scratch my back" philosophy and one person is appointed to the board simply because he knows somebody else. What can we say? If Deputy Callery were nominated I could not say he should not be on the board or is not suitable, although because he is a Deputy he would not be nominated in any event. There should be a degree of scrutiny and oversight. Otherwise, we will be fixed with the idea that appointments are determined by who one knows. I do not believe that should preclude one from membership because one may well have abilities and competencies that are very important in the context of the board. However, it should be possible, even if one is not subject to scrutiny, for the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment to make recommendations, and that was a recommendation of the report of the Committee of Public Accounts. If nothing else, the committee should be in a position to make recommendations to the Minister. At least it would result in two or three recommendations from an all-party committee. I have chaired all-party committees for several years, including the Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs and the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment, of which the Minister of State is a valued member. The vice chairman of that committee is also present. We work by consensus. We have never allowed any partisan or political side to take precedence. I have often held a view but I have never allowed that to cloud the best interests of the committee. If someone can find something in the record to the contrary I will stand down because I would not behave in that way. My role is to be independent and to do what is best and I trust the committee would have a role in this regard. I recognise the Minister will consider the matter because he certainly played a significant role in the past, which I have acknowledged.

The Bill does not change the way in which FÁS works, how it goes about its work or how it develops or implements the labour intervention measures. It must change from the perspective of how, where and why it was established in the mid 1980s. It must evolve to meet the demands of the new situation and circumstances that pertain in 2010 and that will be in place in future. This is especially important in light of the comments of Deputy O'Dowd.

I have had a good deal of interaction with FÁS. All the people I have met in FÁS, including managers, assistant managers, the Minister's staff, other staff and so on have treated me with nothing but the height of courtesy. They have worked with diligence and respect and have done a good job. Clearly, 99.9% of the staff in FÁS have done a good job. There are obviously several people who have questions to answer and we are not the only people who make that point; it has been verified by various reports. Major issues have arisen concerning the total disregard for fundamental or basic accountability which resulted in a significant waste of taxpayers' money and profligacy. To engage in acts of profligacy at a time when money is very scarce and when the Government is trying to scrape money from the bottom of the barrel for important schemes cannot be tolerated, nor should it be. The concerns have now been added to in the Chamber this evening.

I do not wish to rehash the litany of revelations about FÁS in recent times, which have continued with the recent issues raised concerning the severance package agreed with the departing chief executive officer. My colleague, Deputy Róisín Shortall, has queried the legal instruments under which top-up payments were made and why departing CEOs are entitled to certain rights, irrespective of the facts and circumstances surrounding his or her departure. It is important we do not take the matter too far.

We have examined this matter as it relates to the Bill. We are concerned that the Minister would retain a greater degree of control than previously over who is appointed to a board. We are all subject to public perception. I do not believe it is the be all and end all, and perhaps some of the great public should put their names on the ballot paper and see how hard it is to get in here. However, whether it is a perception, the reality or a fact there is the idea that there is cronyism and that it has bedevilled the organisation. The idea that FÁS has been bedevilled by cronyism is very real. The Committee of Public Accounts recommended that the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment should be given a central role in selecting candidates for the board. However, this provision appears to be omitted from the Bill. Is there any reason for this, because the Committee of Public Accounts is a very eminent committee? It is one of the most important committees in the House.

I welcome the whilstleblowing protection offered to employees of FÁS to enable them to speak up against serious wrongdoing in the organisation. However, I am not aware that any such protection is afforded to officials from the Minister's Department. Very often officials from the Department may encounter information that is important. Why should they not have protection if they furnish or reveal such information? It is important that this matter is examined too. I appreciate the Minister of State is trying to herald a new beginning with the Labour Services (Amendment) Bill but in our view it falls some way short in that context. Perhaps now is the time for a major overhaul.

For many years my colleague and former party leader, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, championed and brought forward for consideration a Whistleblowers Protection Bill. As far back as 1999 it was an issue which motivated him and about which he cared deeply. The Bill was introduced by the Labour Party thanks to him. The Government created all sorts of obfuscation, verbal gymnastics and downright empty rhetoric in order to stall that Bill. Eventually it brought forward a motion seeking a discharge of an earlier Order of the Dáil to allow consideration of the Bill. For some time, the Taoiseach and other Ministers continued to give the impression that they working to strengthen and improve the Bill - a process the Labour Party would have accepted - but nothing was further from the truth.

The purpose of Deputy Rabbitte's Bill was to challenge the traditional culture of secrecy surrounding the conduct of business and public affairs in this country. In the notorious litany of events which has reached the public domain, one was often compelled to ask whether anybody had stumbled across some of the wrongdoing that has now emerged. If so, why was it not reported earlier? People may well have known or had suspicions, but the consequences for whistle-blowers' careers and livelihoods were such that it may have been easier to turn a blind eye. I acknowledge that the protection being afforded now is important but I wanted to go further in suggesting that even departmental officials would be protected.

Deputy Rabbitte's Private Members' Bill proposed a new set of statutory rights for employees whether in the public or private sectors, to report and transmit information concerning illegality or malpractice which they discover in the course of their employment. Under the Labour Party's Bill, any employee who blows the whistle on fraud or malpractice would be entitled to protection against dismissal or any other sanction which his or her employer attempts to impose.

There is clearly an obligation on the State to ensure that individuals who provide such information are not victimised or discriminated against in the wake of such disclosures. We in the Labour Party welcome section 7 as a move in the right direction. The Government should, however, take the next step by either introducing its own whistle-blowers' legislation, or do the decent thing and accept the Labour Party's Bill on whistle-blowers' protection. It is still fit for purpose and we are eager that it should be accepted. My colleague, Deputy Rabbitte, has been vociferous in that regard.

With the permission of the House, a Cheann Comhairle, I wish to share the last five minutes of my slot with my colleague, Deputy Kathleen Lynch.

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