Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)

Deputy Allen's contribution was helpful and he asked useful questions. However, it is interesting that his and other Opposition Members' contributions demonstrate that Fine Gael seems to have completely moved away from its original policy. It also seems to have moved away from the allegation made at the start by the Fine Gael spokesperson on finance about the selection of 1,500 developers. It was irresponsible, wrong and reckless to allege that 1,500 developers were being hand-picked to go into NAMA. That is not the case.

When we examine legislation we are bringing through the House we must ask ourselves what the problem is that needs to be fixed. In the case of NAMA, the problem that must be fixed relates to the number of development loans sitting on banks' books where in many cases no interest is being charged. The Government had to do something about this. My only criticism is that we should probably have introduced NAMA earlier. However, other things were happening with the banking system. What is at the heart of the Government's proposal is to ensure borrowers are repaying their loans where they can and if not to repossess the properties. It is as simple as that. The banks were not able or willing to do that. Therefore, in the interest of the wider economy the Government must step in to make sure that is done.

That is the reason I am astounded by the proposals made by Mr. Desmond and by Fine Gael. The main advantage Fine Gael suggests its proposal has over NAMA is that the banks that made the loans may have better incentives, skills, information and estate agency experience to recover loans made to developers. This is what Fine Gael has said in its policy paper. It suggests the banks can do this and go after the developers. However, the banks have not being doing this. Where did Fine Gael make up this proposal? The problem is the banks have not being doing it and Fine Gael cannot see the problem. The banks have failed in that regard. Mr. Desmond also has great faith in the banks.

Faith in the banks is at the heart of the Fine Gael proposal. What banks has Fine Gael given as examples of where its policy works? It has given as examples Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley. Is Fine Gael serious? We are trying to get people back to work. Hundreds of people in my constituency are about to lose their jobs in Aer Lingus, but Fine Gael tells us that if we do it like Bradford & Bingley and Northern Rock, the economy will be back on track. That is wrong.

A letter sent to me from a Fine Gael Deputy, which looked like it was written in the Fine Gael press office, asked me why I have decided to support the bailing out of the 1,500 people NAMA intends to bail out. I cannot understand how any Minister for Finance could hand pick 1,500 people. NAMA is not about 1,500 people. It is about 4 million people on this island to whom we need to return hope and confidence, not about the nonsense the Opposition has been raising about it.

NAMA is the worst nightmare of builders and developers who have not being paying their loans. We must get that fact across and that is the basis of my support for NAMA. Fianna Fáil is very clear that people who borrowed money must pay it back. Why should people who have not been repaying their loans be treated differently by the banks than the ordinary people we represent, who are not being treated in the same fashion? The banks have not been doing their job and Fine Gael's and Dermot Desmond's faith in them is astounding.

I support NAMA. There have been many rumours about it. Last night on television we heard one such rumour, namely that builders have not been selling apartments for the past nine months because they are waiting for NAMA. The NAMA proposal was only made in April, so how can such rumours be true? However, rumours are constantly being propagated by the Opposition against the interest of the people. We can have reasonable discussion and questions like those of Deputy Allen, but they are few and far between. We have had some sensible proposals from the Labour Party, but they just do not work or might be more expensive. At least they went some way to help. However, even the Labour Party was prone, on occasion, to accuse us of bailing out builders and developers.

Let us bail out the economy. Let us look after the ordinary people and get off that record. Let us have more developers, like Zoe Developments, in court. If they cannot pay their bills, that is where they should end up. That is a good template for NAMA, rather than what was suggested by The Irish Times and other political entities. The suggestion was that somehow this court case was designed to help NAMA and that the refusal of examinership was a disaster for NAMA. Refusal of examinership in a case like that is exactly what NAMA should be about. If there is no hope for the company, the Government must step in where the banks have failed.

Let us look at the money that will come from NAMA. We can have all the guarantees or rules we like about banks lending out money, but if they have not got the cash there is not much we can do about it. NAMA will give banks the cash and the Minister can put in stricter requirements with regard to lending the money to the wider economy - to people who can repay their loans. We must not forget when talking about lending money that the problem we have is as a result of lending too much money. Therefore, we want to lend money in the proper circumstances. I heard Deputy Kenny remark one day that needy families required credit. Needy families do not require credit. They require jobs and hope, but not credit. There is too much credit in the economy for families. Businesses require credit. I have full faith and support in NAMA.

I am also astounded by the latest Fine Gael press release on NAMA, which criticises the 80% rezoning tax. While the IFA must represent its members' interests, it has more to be doing than criticising this 80% tax. This 80% tax is designed to get around the problem we have had whereby the small number of landowners gained at the expense of the many. Fine Gael issued a press release on this today saying it supports people who have had land rezoned against having to pay an 80% tax. Why, asks Fine Gael, should they have to pay an 80% tax. They are the people Fine Gael has been complaining about who over the past ten years have gained the millions that were borrowed and are now the cause of our problems. However, Fine Gael is now again supporting every interest group.

How many farmers will be able to benefit from rezoned land? In its latest statement on its website, Fine Gael shows this is what it is concerned about. Very few farmers will be in a position to be worried about paying capital gains tax on the sale of rezoned land. Let us worry about the real issues in the economy. The 80% tax is not an issue. I fully support it as do most of my colleagues. It should not affect any one-off housing because such houses are rarely built on zoned land. They are usually built on agricultural land.

Let us have a proper debate and let us talk about the approach to take. Let us worry about the valuations. We are all worried about the valuations. It is a massive amount of money for anyone to spend on these loans. We must get that message across. It makes me angry every time I hear we are buying property or that NAMA will become the biggest property company in the world. We are buying loans and many of them are good and will help pay for the running of NAMA. Those good developers who are paying back their loans should be encouraged to promote further development, and employment.

We are constantly saying we do not have enough construction employment and that is true. There are too many people unemployed. Any good developers who are paying back, contributing to society and looking at investment need to be encouraged, and that message has to go out, too. However, the speculators or the "flippers" as they are often referred to, who unfortunately are hopeless cases, must be moved out of the system because they are blocking the construction industry and the wider economy. That is the simple reality of the NAMA approach.

I fully support it, but we are worried. However, I should be more worried if we did nothing, because the situation at the moment is so dire. While the international economy is moving on - and we are benefiting from that - the domestic economy is not. NAMA needs to get the money into the economy. Whatever mechanisms the Minister needs to put into the legislation to get that money into the economy, let him do that. Get the money into the economy and the banks off our necks. Close down Anglo Irish Bank as soon as possible, but let us not tell the wider world that we are going to default on our obligations. That is the layman's banking solution and it is not one that can be recommended to a small country totally dependent on international trade.

See this speech in context