Noel Ahern (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)

Whatever, but that was the way it went. In the 15 months, life has moved on. We have had the guarantee of deposits and liabilities and the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank, along with the acquisition of 25% shares in AIB and Bank of Ireland. We now have billions of euro in impaired loans and banks are not servicing the economy, as we know. However, we must deal with it and move on.

NAMA is purchasing loans of €77 billion from the various financial institutions, for which we are paying €54 billion. Each loan will need to be assessed and valued independently, but I am surprised that the valuations to date have come out so high. House prices are down by about 30%, but I thought development land would have fallen much more in price. I know the line that when somebody borrowed €100 million, theoretically that was only 75% of the investment, but I wonder about it.

The most similar event I can recall is the winding up of the Insurance Corporation of Ireland. After years in the Department of Finance, there must have been some conclusion to the file and recommendations about how to handle similar events in the future. I would love to hear from the Department about these recommendations. I can remember times when the banks were making major profits and we were all still paying levies to make up for the decision made back in the 1980s. That is my biggest fear this time. NAMA will work fine — that is not a fear. However, I look into the future and see the banks making great profits again in ten or 15 years, while much of the residue — or crap, if I may use that horrible, unparliamentary word — is still left in NAMA. Are we, as taxpayers and as the State, properly protected in this Bill? How do we need to change it in this regard?

I particularly like the arrangement that has been made to date whereby we have made a capital investment in Bank of Ireland and AIB in return for 25% equity, as well as dividends in the future. However, if we must give all these resources, in whatever form, to the banks, I would like to have more equity. I hope such things can be considered on Committee Stage. My problem is not so much with the €7 billion long-term economic value — in fact, I was surprised that figure was not higher — but the €9 billion in rolled-up interest that we are taking over. What are we getting for that €9 billion? I know what we are getting in terms of the long-term economic value of the €7 billion. That is reasonable, as one can only expect property values to rise into the future. However, for the €9 billion, we should be getting an equity stake and we should be buying it at the share price that prevailed some months ago and not the current price. It is on those points I have my concerns and I hope we can consider such things on Committee Stage to strengthen the Bill and give the State and the taxpayer more protection.

It is proposed to make lobbying NAMA a criminal offence, although I do not know whether such a provision is in the Bill yet. Of course, any attempt to influence the valuations would be terribly wrong and should be an offence, but we must be careful that we are not becoming daft with such provisions. I hope that if Deputy Noel Ahern were to write a letter or two to NAMA it would not be decided on the basis of a response to an FOI request in two, five or ten years' time that he was improperly lobbying. We must be careful what we put into such legislation because sometimes it can be daft. Everyone is against improper lobbying, but when a Deputy writes letters it is not the letters that do any harm.

We have this Bill and we cannot afford to waste a year going back to square one. It may not be perfect, but let us pass Second Stage and get on with Committee Stage so we can improve it for the good of society and the taxpayer and for our future. In addition, as Deputy Higgins said, we need to include a guarantee that the banks do not just take the money and fatten their balance sheets with it. It must be rolled over so that we achieve the outcome for which we hope.

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