Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)

The Minister of State does not believe this is a bailout for bankers. It is a bailout for bankers and speculators, and I will explain why. I will deal with the bankers first. The estimation the Minister for Finance gave to this House last week was that there is approximately €88 billion in toxic loans but, of course, he used the atrocious term "hair cut". It is back down to a 47% reduction from the €88 billion which is a figure of approximately €47 billion for the value of the loans.

Like me and everyone here, the Minister of State knows that if one buys a property anywhere in the world, the first question the lending institution will ask will concern the market value of the property. That is what people will go by. They will not ask about one's expectation of the long-term economic value of the property. Any lending institution would laugh at one if one submitted such a notion.

How can we guess the current market value in this State? There is only one piece of solid evidence on which one can rely and it relates to the Carroll-Zoe application to the High Court for protection. ACC Bank is pursuing the Carroll-Zoe group. Zoe agreed, and the judges in the High Court and the Supreme Court accepted, that in the event of a fire sale of the properties, the market value would probably be of the order of 25%.

Why are we paying exorbitant amounts of taxpayers' money? People have their backs to the wall, they are losing their jobs, their homes are being foreclosed on and they are threatened with losing their family homes, yet we are shovelling money from these people - low and middle income families - to support corrupt bankers. This part of our history will be looked on with significant sadness in generations to come.

We talk about nationalising the banks but do not put forward nationalisation as a simplistic measure. It is not simplistic; it is a complex measure but a tried and tested one which has been implemented in many states on a numerous occasions. It is important this State has a state bank. If we had a state bank which operated with honesty and integrity and did not engage in the carry-on of these corrupt bankers, we would not be in this mess because we could have measured the carry-on of other bankers against the proper measures of a state bank. It is a bailout by any measure for corrupt bankers. It legalises and rewards corruption and it should not happen.

In regard to the Carroll-Zoe group of companies, I refer to another document put forward which is of interest in this debate and should be mentioned. Anglo Irish Bank was nationalised in January. It is the Government's and the taxpayers' bank. It is a state bank owned and controlled by the State. According to papers lodged with the High Court and the Supreme Court, Anglo Irish Bank submitted a document stating that it would continue to employ Carroll companies to build its new headquarters in south Dublin at a cost of €68 million. Some €68 million is being spent on a new headquarters for the most toxic zombie bank on the face of the earth. How can the Minister of State justify that? Why has the Government not told Anglo Irish Bank to wise up, that it will not get new palatial headquarters with a cushion for its bum, that it is all right where it is for the moment and that it will not transfer €65 million to it for fine new headquarters? It is scandalous that is being allowed to happen. That bank is under the direct control of the Government which can move to stop that nonsense.

I compare that to the north-east region, and I do not mean counties Antrim, Down and Armagh. In this context, I refer to Louth, Meath, Cavan and Monaghan where there has been a health crisis for decades. There is a proposal to build a regional hospital but it cannot proceed because no funding is available to build it. However, there is funding to the tune of €68 million available to build a new headquarters for Anglo Irish Bank in south Dublin. Somebody needs to look at what is going on because I find that obnoxious in the extreme.

The Minister of State is from Fianna Fáil but the other party in government is the Green Party. What is the Green Party doing? Every now and again it sends a Senator out to the plinth to throw shapes, as Christy Moore would have said, at the media and threaten what it will do with the Government and Fianna Fáil and whether the party will walk out of, or stay in, government. As soon as he finishes throwing shapes, he hurries back into the other House, as do his colleagues in this House, to vote with the Government.

Despite all its fine rhetoric when it was on this side of the House a couple of years ago, the Green Party has lost its social conscience and lost sight of the needs of ordinary people. It does not care whether children get a proper education or whether people in need of health care get it. I do not know where Christy Moore is at the moment but I hope he is noting what is going on in this State because he would write some ballad to cover this episode of our history. I hope if he is about he will do so and record it very soon.

The Green Party told us it will ensure equal sharing of the risk between the bankers and the taxpayer. To me, that means 50:50 sharing of the risk but the Green Party has agreed to the taxpayer taking on 95% of the risk and the bankers taking on 5%. It is throwing some shapes. That is some equality in the sharing. Members of the Green Party are some bunch.

This is a bailout for the bankers. Where is the bailout for ordinary people? Where is the bailout for people who have lost their jobs, who are struggling to feed and clothe their families and who are probably facing foreclosure on their homes? Where is the bailout for that category? What is the Government doing to deal with those people who are at their wits' end to try to feed their families and to survive? I see nothing from this Government to deal with the needs of those people and the crisis they face.

I watched a programme on television on Monday evening last. There were two people on the panel - one represented the bankers and the other the developers. They were two interesting characters. Eamon Dunphy, commentator and media personality, pointed out that one of them was a former Fianna Fáil national secretary and the other, Tom Parlon, a former Minister of State. That demonstrates a firm connection between politicians, bankers and developers. While that extremely unhealthy triangle exists, we cannot expect anything different from this Government and that needs to change. That culture is innate but at long last I believe the people have copped on to it. I hope they have an opportunity shortly in a general election to deal with that issue.

The Minister of State said NAMA is not a bailout for the speculators and the developers. Why does the Bill state that not only will it give speculators money to help them finish their projects but NAMA will become partners with the speculators in finishing unfinished developments? That sounds like a bailout for developers.

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