Dermot Ahern (Louth, Fianna Fail)

I thank the Deputies for their comments on this Bill. We all share the same objective, to address a relatively urgent matter. When this judgment was handed down we had some forewarning that it might be negative and the Department made preparations in the event the case went against us. Case law in this area has developed over the years and imprisonment is regarded as a last resort. I wish to debunk the notion that our prisons are cluttered up with debtors.

I was a practitioner in this area in my earlier years and as a newly qualified solicitor I was given this type of work because it is not the most enterprising area and it is difficult. Small businesses invariably want to collect their debts and there are many hoops to go through.

It is a frustrating experience for somebody who is owed a debt. It must be said there are many opportunities for debtors to evade their responsibility in this regard. Deputy Flanagan will attest to this but I cannot recall anyone I was involved with in a case, either as a creditor or a debtor, going to prison. That was my experience. Given that there are numbers in prison, it was happening but my experience was that judges were always extremely reluctant to put anyone in prison in respect of a debt.

One of the Deputies raised the issue of whether they have a criminal record. They do not have a criminal record. This is a civil matter and there is no criminal record to be expunged.

The objective we were trying to fulfil was to deal with an urgent situation. When the Laffoy judgment was delivered, there were a number of people in prison and between then and now we have erred on the side of caution. We released 11 people from prison who were there subject to section 6 and, to be fair and absolutely correct, a further 11 people were let out in that period. They were subject to section 8 which is relevant to maintenance orders. Even though maintenance orders were not challenged in this particular action and given the fact that section 8 was framed in the same way as section 6, we felt it would be vulnerable to challenge and we decided, therefore, on the basis of the Attorney General's advice to err on the side of caution and release from prison those people who were subject to maintenance orders.

We decided that we would hone in on the requirement of the Laffoy decision for safeguards and protections to be put into this section, and that is the reason we have a new section 6. The Law Reform Commission will give a view and it is better that it looks at the entire area of debt, not least the issue some Deputies raised - it was raised in the Seanad also - as to the reason people get into debt in the first place, and some of the issues Deputy Ó Snodaigh raised. It is important that is examined.

We were endeavouring to get a balance between the creditor on the one hand, such as small businesses and situations where there was a maintenance order and the errant spouse was not paying on foot of that order, and, on the other, to make sure the debtor got a fair and reasonable opportunity to respond to the court and in a way in which, ultimately, they do not go to prison. As I said, judges have always been reluctant in this regard. I have dealt with Deputy Ó Snodaigh's question on the criminal record.

The Bill as proposed refers in two different sections to the requirement for ordinary language to be used in regard to the summons, etc. Section 6(1) is to provide information in ordinary language about the options available. That is a duty the judge has to explain.

I thank the Deputies. This is a tortuous area. To refer back to my experience, I told a story in the Seanad about an effort I made on behalf of a relatively elderly Canadian couple in my constituency about 25 years ago.

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