Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)

The Minister should acknowledge that it was the commission which wrote to him on behalf of ordinary Members of the Oireachtas proposing that these matters should be addressed. In the public relations campaign and so on that was attendant on the last budget, the Minister managed to lose sight of the fact that it was the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission that had put forward a scheme for the reduction of the various expenses. It is good that the Minister should work with the Houses of the Oireachtas but I want to get back to the point that Deputy Creed made. It is important for our democracy that the expenses of Ministers and Ministers of State be as transparent as those of TDs. I have the schedule of Ministers' salaries. They did not accept the last increase. I am aware that the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen, when he returned to office, struggled with the issue of whether to accept the suggested increases for Ministers and I think he stayed at the current rate. That, for a Minister, is €214,000. Is that correct? That is what is in the schedule we received in the last report. The Taoiseach's salary is €271,000. Some Ministers add to that an active ministerial credit card. These expenses are never listed with TDs expenses. When it comes to the publication of expenses, TDs' expenses are properly listed and published, but because ministerial expenses are paid by individual Departments they are never listed, and it is made to look as if Ministers are not in receipt of expenses. This is the wrong impression because Ministers have significant and important expenses. If one is making general regulations the expenses of Ministers, whether paid by the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission or by Departments, should be listed at the same time as the expenses of Deputies are listed. I do not know whether the Minister's amendment provides for this. It is very unfair to Deputies to give the impression that some of them earn more than Ministers because they do not, unless they have been Ministers and have been receiving ministerial pensions until now. That should be clarified.

Do people who have served as Attorneys General and go on to have other lucrative and highly-paid positions continue to collect a full ministerial pension? Some receive significant sums, to judge by the senior positions they hold in Ireland and internationally. That should be considered, perhaps by way of an abatement. It would be interesting to know whether multimillionaires, particularly those who lecture the rest of us, and ordinary people and old age pensioners about giving up their pensions, make the same kind of sacrifices that they often suggest the rest of us should make. The information about ministerial emoluments, entitlements and so on should be published at the same time as that relating to Deputies.

When the Minister received the report from an bord snip nua yesterday evening did he dip into it? It is human nature to want to do so.

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