Brian Lenihan Jnr (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)

I appreciate that, Deputy. Deputy O'Donnell also asked the question and Deputy Shatter addressed the legal issues.

Deputy Bruton asked about increments in the public service generally but they do not arise in this legislation. Fine Gael has consistently advocated that increments be frozen in the public service. Typically, increments in the public service are earned by the lower grades quite rapidly and amount to a substantial increase in their remuneration as they progress. We looked at this issue when preparing the pension levy earlier in the year and found there would be arbitrary effects to freezing increments in that people doing like work would not receive like remuneration. For that reason we felt the pension arrangement was fairer.

The position of Deputies and Senators is unique in the public sector and I do not believe there is, in principle, a case for the payment of an increment simply on the basis of length of service. In pension schemes I will respect those increments which have been earned by Members.

Deputy Creighton referred to the salary reductions taken by different individuals within the community. The average imposition made by the pension levy in the public sector is of the order of 6.8%. The forecast of the EU for this year is for a reduction of between 4% and 5% in payroll levels. Of course, in some firms there have been reductions very much in excess of that and in some of the sheltered sectors there have been pay increases. There is a much wider spectrum in the private than in the public sector.

I take issue with one point made by Deputies Creighton and Barrett to the effect that there was an age in Ireland when politics were the preserve of the wealthy. Salaries were very poor in this House for many years and the House was not dominated in any sense by wealthy people. Back in the 19th century, when we had to send people to another Parliament in London, Members of Parliament for Irish constituencies who represented the national interest in the old Home Rule Party had no remuneration at all. Many went to London at considerable personal expense and lived in circumstances of near destitution while earning no pensions. We do not acknowledge that fact often enough in this House. We commemorated the First Dáil this year and we should also acknowledge those who represented the national interest elsewhere, many of whom lived in garrets to attend meetings of the House of Commons.

The idea of paying public representatives was introduced by the political left and was designed to give people the freedom to act in the public interest, which is fundamental and very important. However, in the various Dáileanna since 1919 there have been a large number of individuals who had to lead a very restricted lifestyle and the House was not noteworthy for many persons of substantial wealth. In fact, most Members were very poor and that has been the case for many years. The former Minister and current EU Commissioner, Mr. Charlie McCreevy, did a good day's work for politics in ensuring a reasonable level of remuneration. Nevertheless, we must look at some of the excesses that developed in recent years and trim them.

I feel I have dealt with most of the questions put by Deputies during the course of the debate.

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