Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)

I did not interrupt the Minister, who should contain the bantam cock side of his personality for a moment. If the Minister had any evidence of interference with jurors, he would have included it in that letter to Deputy Flanagan. The Minister does not have any evidence. He says the statistics do not exist and I suggest that the reason they do not exist is because there is none. Mr. Justice Paul Carney is the most senior, experienced judge in the criminal courts. Those of us on these benches want to see these thugs made amenable to the law. If the Minister has evidence that there is intimidation of juries, I will withdraw my opposition to that section. I have made it plain that we do not oppose any measures, within the law, designed to combat organised crime. The issue is whether the Minister can establish that in this section.

The Minister should remember that he dodged the issue on "Morning Ireland" and that he allied witnesses and jurors into the same sentence on every opportunity he has been given to talk about this. As a lawyer, the Minister knows the difference but he knows that there are people outside the House who do not readily pick up on the difference. As a result, we are dealing with something about which we do not have evidence. There is no merit in trying to suggest that the House is divided or that there is any party or Member not dedicated to the rule of law and putting gangsters put behind bars. We want to do so with the most effective measures available to us. That is the only issue. If the Minister can rewrite the letter he wrote to Deputy Flanagan and provide us with the evidence, I am prepared to change my mind.

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