Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)

The Minister said this matter was not political. I take issue with this. It may not be divisive, but it is political because it is down to politicians to put this right. Other systems and procedures in the former health boards, hospitals and the justice system have failed the victims in this case. It is down to politicians to put this right or at least try to ease the pain of the victims. All Members present have met the young men who were badly affected. One can see in their eyes the hurt they have endured and their families and friends have had to live with. It is up to all of us to use the political system to get results.

A debate calling for a proper inquiry has been a long time coming. I accept the Minister on first meeting the victims could not have immediately agreed to an inquiry. However, she could have given a guarantee that she would ensure, no matter what it took, to get the answers, be it an inquiry as proposed in the motion or whichever way was best. From day one, I have said whatever way is best must be used to get answers and justice. Mr. Shine must feel what justice is all about.

We believe it will require an inquiry because much happened in this case. It was not just the abuse of young male patients but also the subsequent cover-up. Even if a small percentage of what the patients claim about the cover-up case is true, there are some serious problems facing us. The case was dragged out with barrier after barrier and delay after delay to prevent justice being done. That is what is also wrong, just as much as what went on in the hospital under Dr. Shine, a title I will no longer use for him. It was an abuse of power and we must ensure it does not continue.

The victims are not asking for much as an inquiry would not cost a fortune. If it is a funding issue, we know there is money left in the kitty by the hospital's previous owners. It must be put to good use to get results. The victims need answers and all sections involved in the case must be investigated. There was a problem in this country of protecting people in powerful positions and who were well educated. I hope those days are gone. It can be proved by going after all those involved in the cover-up of this case.

Being a small country, we must go the extra length to protect whistleblowers. The health service is dysfunctional; it is a system in which people are afraid to speak up about wrongdoing. I know this from when I worked in the health service from 1995 to 1997. People were afraid then and still are to speak out; they were afraid the walls had ears. I spoke to Professor Drumm about HSE staff being afraid to share their opinions and point out wrongs. We must do away with this veil of secrecy and fear to speak out in all Departments, especially in the health sector. We need people like Bernadette Sullivan to know they can come forward to point out wrongs and even give an opinion without their careers suffering as happened in the past. The latter is not encouraged in our system and we suffer as a result.

What occurred in the hospital in question was an abuse of power and could have happened to any one of us. For too long consultants have been given too much power. They must realise, like all those who provide a service, that they are only a cog in the wheel and need a team. While many of them may have come to realise this, those who have not must recognise nurses and other staff are just as important as they are. We must stop bowing to people because of their position. I accept we should respect it, but we should not shy away from them, letting them away with wrongdoing. I hope what went on with Mr. Shine and the way he treated and abused people does not happen any more in our hospitals. Procedures may be in place, but we must ensure they work. Just because a person is educated and in a top position we should not shy away from him or her. They are only part of the system. Without the nurses and other hospital staff, the consultant cannot do his or her job either.

The delay in having this case dealt with is another issue. The Minister must agree to an immediate inquiry. We hear all these compliments, thanking the Minister for meeting the victims. That is what is wrong with this country. She should have picked up the telephone to arrange to meet them rather than being asked by numerous Members on all sides of the House to do so. This matter has been ongoing for years but last November it became clear that it could be tackled, yet today, 1 July, the Minister is still scratching her head, going to talk her colleagues and think about it. She has had long enough to think about it. It is time to act, not to pretend it is great she is meeting the victims. This country will only learn from its problems when Ministers take direct action to deal with them. It should not be a case of being hounded into taking action. They should lead the way in ensuring such cases are investigated and will not recur. That is real justice and would go some way towards helping the unfortunate people concerned, the 150 about whom we know, and their families who suffered greatly because of this abuse. We must go the extra length to ensure this case is explained as best it can with no stone unturned. What went on and the delays in investigating these events were wrong.

Apart from an inquiry, the victims' group also needs financial assistance and secretarial backup. So far, it has only had one woman and a small team putting in serious hours to get justice. The least we can do is to release some funding to allow the group to do its job properly.

Last night Ministers referred to counselling services being available to the victims. They need specific counselling by those trained to understand their situation, not a general helpline service. Members on the other side also spoke about the guidelines introduced to ensure the safety of children. However, not enough use is made of soft information. Its use was debated many years ago at the education committee and it needs to be determined. There are stories, but abuse seems to continue in places.

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