James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)

I start by reminding the Minister of State, Deputy Andrews, that this debate is not about the never-neverland of a paediatric national hospital but about cutbacks of today that are hurting children who are in pain and suffering today. It is about today.

I will not repeat all that I said last night but I must remind people of the efficiency of Crumlin hospital, its increased productivity in day and theatre cases and in outpatients. Some of the statements comparing it to Birmingham have been refuted already. Birmingham's inpatient and day cases were matched with Crumlin's inpatient cases on their own. This is disingenuous at best.

I reiterate what I said last night about the needless pain that children will suffer because of delayed surgery. They may need five episodes of surgery, with five episodes of post-surgical pain, where one would have more than sufficed. I think of what Deputy Paul Connaughton said a few minutes ago and I realise the staff in Crumlin are stars - but the children are heroic.

The Minister said last night that our document shows a 3% cut. That is across all Departments, not across all hospitals. If I were Minister for Health and Children, I would look to the hospitals that deliver the sort of efficiencies Crumlin delivers. Under the money-to-follow-the-patient regime of budgeting we wish to bring in, Crumlin hospital would receive more money not less, be allowed do more operations not fewer and would be allowed keep more of this country's children for treatment, not fewer.

It matters greatly who the Minister for Health and Children is although last night the Minister tried to pretend otherwise. She goes for the easy cut and does not look hard. She is tough on children but not on reform. I shall return to that point. Is she tough on reforming the HSE? There is no sign of it. She goes after the weakest in society instead of going after waste in hospitals and in management.

Concerning the working group idea which has been trotted out yet again, Crumlin hospital asked for this in 2007 but suddenly today it is the panacea for all our ills. Last night there was talk about the National Treatment Purchase Fund and the cost of scoliosis treatment. Under the NTPF, scoliosis treatment would not be as wasteful as certain other treatments because the surgeons in question are public surgeons who will not charge private fees if they do the work elsewhere. Cappagh hospital is a public hospital. There is no problem there. What is stupid and inexcusable, however, is the closing down of a perfectly good theatre in Crumlin with its team in place, and referring the lot over to Cappagh. To what end? It is ludicrous and a waste of money.

I return now to the budget of Crumlin hospital. A speaker mentioned a figure of €144 million, which is incorrect. The figure is €138 million from which the Government wants to take €9.1 million. That sum of €138 million represents less than 1% of the €16 billion that we spend on health in general. I remind the Minister of State that there are 1.25 million children in this country who represent over 30% of our population. He wants to cut €9 million from their budget.

The facts speak for themselves. An elderly lady once said to me,"You know, Doctor, the truth isn't fragile, it won't break". I assure the Minister of State that in this case the truth will not break either. I think of the disingenuity of the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, who suggested that treatment delays might be the patient's fault. I shall return to that but now offer the point made to me by the doctors in Crumlin, namely, deferred treatment is always more expensive. The money still has to be spent but more than likely there will be complications.

Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned the coldness of the Ministers last night. I wrote that down on my page. The cold dispassionate approach, seeing children as mere statistics, shown by the Minister, Deputy Harney, and the Minister of State, Deputy Moloney, said more about their attitude than I could ever say.

I shall read out some of the statements made by the Minister of State. He said, "Our Lady's Hospital Crumlin is no different from any of our hospitals". I guarantee to him that 1.25 million children in this country would believe otherwise. He also said, concerning reasons for operations not taking place, "The patient may be deemed unfit to proceed, the procedure may be cancelled by the patient or the guardian". How many times has that happened? He went on to say, "There may be normal re-scheduling due to appointment times not being suitable". That is code for "we cannot take you because of the cutbacks". The Government has lost touch with the people in a major way.

I wish to raise some other points in the few minutes that remain. Why is there no national czar or leader for paediatrics in this country? We have one for cancer. How many patients with cancer are there in this country? How many children? Talk is cheap but action takes longer. Let us not forget the 1.25 million children. We talk about waste. I asked last night why, when billions of euro are being provided for the bankers there are cutbacks for our children.

I say to the Minister of State to look elsewhere for the savings, to look at the waste within the HSE. I was challenged on this point last night by a claim there were only one or two such areas. The sum of €60 million was paid for taxis. A 10% saving in that area would yield €6 million. Money spent on consultants to deconstruct the HSE amounted to €1 million. Private consultants and spin doctors were paid €17 million. In the HSE bureaucracy there were six Grade 8 personnel when it started. Now there are 700, all earning more than €80,000. Advisors to the Government were paid €6.2 million. There is the national drugs bill for which there was a €50 million shortfall in expected savings and no attempt made to prescribe generic drugs, by which hundreds of millions of euro could be saved.

HSE banking inefficiencies cost €20 million per year. Consultants' contracts face a spend of €50 million due to a loophole in the contract. The hospitals' cleaning bill cost €578 million, up 54% since 2005. We need them clean but we should not be cleaned out while we are doing it. How many millions have been wasted on decentralisation of Government? Professor Brendan Drumm said there were 3,000-4,000 people in the HSE who did not know what their jobs were. All this waste, but the Minister of State wants to go after the children.

Last night Deputy Mary White said she could not attend a the hospital because she could not find a pairing. My Whip told me that was not the case. She is delighted about the very welcome news that Jamie Murphy will now have her operation abroad through the goodwill of a benefactor. I, too, welcome the relief this will bring to the Murphy family. However, what of the hundreds of other families and children? The Deputy is silent on this matter. Did she not say in this House two weeks ago that she would cherish all the children equally? It is in her gift, as the deputy leader of the junior partner in Government. Tonight she can bring that same joy and relief to hundreds of other families by voting for our motion to stop these cuts.

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