Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)

I thank Deputy Burton for sharing her time.

I want to consider Part 2 of Schedule 2, which amends the Act we passed last September and, as I understand it, permits the Minister, by order, to continue the banks' guarantee essentially for as long as he sees fit. I have heard Deputy Bruton refer to selective extensions only and to the Taoiseach's qualification of this on the Order of Business or during Leaders' Questions. I would like to hear the Minister explain how the extensions are qualified and limited because it seems that so long as he is of the opinion that it is in the public interest that such assistance be continued and that circumstances warrant his doing so, he can make orders indefinitely.

This is such a major matter that I do not believe any greater one will come before the House unless some nation declares war on us. We believed some €440 billion in liabilities was guaranteed until 29 September 2010 but the Minister is now taking power unto himself, and by order, to extend this period when and if he sees fit. The criteria laid down in section 6(3A) and so forth are not really very onerous. Given how we interpreted the legislation so far, we can predict the Minister will extend the timeframe.

The Taoiseach made a reasonable point today when he said there are borrowing opportunities in the marketplace of which he would not be able to take advantage were the date restricted to 29 September 2010. However, the blanket power is excessive. The least one can say is that this House ought to have been given the opportunity to scrutinise the Bill at leisure and hear the Minister's arguments. We are not being given that opportunity.

I do not claim to have the knowledge of Deputies Burton and Bruton on this measure and have quite a heavy legislative burden of my own as part of my spokesmanship, but I am one of a number of Deputies who believe we are taking a momentous decision that will affect future generations. The Deputies would like to believe they could be reasonably assured, following debate in the Oireachtas, that they are going broadly in the right direction and have discharged their duty. We cannot discharge our duty in the time provided or in the manner proposed, regardless of whatever excuse will be presented on 29 September 2010.

While it is very easy to talk on the Opposition side of the House, I understand the dilemma that may well have arisen on that fateful night when the two chief executives told the Minister for Finance and Taoiseach the house of cards was to come down in the morning and that the banking system would collapse if it were not guaranteed. It is like the case of a bomb disposal expert faced with cutting a red or blue wire in the knowledge that making the incorrect decision will have disastrous consequences. I understand this but cannot understand today, on 23 June 2009, the pressure not to permit the House to scrutinise this legislation Stage by Stage, as was intended when the legislative process was put in place. I worry about this enormously.

As Deputy Burton stated, we saw a piece of the jigsaw last week and are to see another next week and we do not know when we will see the National Asset Management Agency Bill. I am told there are developers working feverishly at present to strip out the not-so-risky bad loans and place them with institutions whose headquarters are outside the State and not covered for the purposes of this legislation, such that by the time the National Asset Management Agency becomes operable, we will be left with the more long-term liabilities or useless or less valuable assets.

There are so many questions one would like the opportunity to raise. Deputies Burton and Bruton both dealt with the regulatory system. I cannot get my head around how one originally small bank, Anglo Irish Bank, was permitted to blow the bubble so large that the entire banking system was put at risk. Nobody shouted "Stop". As Deputy Burton fairly stated, it does not matter how often the bank returns for recapitalisation, the guarantee will leave us with no choice but to pony up.

I missed the Minister's introductory remarks because I had to go out to the gate to meet a woman who, in 2001, had to remortgage her house to get €25,000 to meet a pressing family need. She went to the Bank of Ireland yesterday to pay off the loan. She has been paying in the intervening years at a fixed rate. The bank wanted €58,000 to discharge the loan.

She had raised the €58,000 and went to hand it in to the Bank of Ireland which asked for a €12,000 break-out fee on top of the €58,000. That is what the average punter is experiencing. For all of the recapitalisation we have no protocol with the banks which can exert that kind of pressure.

In the minute remaining to me I want to underwrite Deputy Burton's comments on the pensions issue. I, too, am delighted for the staff of the universities and FÁS. If one travels a lot one needs pension reassurance. What about all the people in the private sector who are experiencing problems with defined benefit pension schemes and so on, yet at the flip of a coin we take on this responsibility? It is all very well for Deputy Burton to say that it was an addition to the balance sheet on that side but what about the liabilities that come with it? It is mind-blowing. The assets in the FÁS scheme are €328 million. I do not know what scrutiny they have undergone by way of audit of individual schemes and so on. The liabilities are €683 million. That measure of the pension transfer alone would warrant the kind of debate that we are having here until 11 p.m. tonight, never mind the bigger issues in the Bill.

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