Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)

We could offer sympathy to the survivors of the physical, sexual and emotional abuse outlined in the Ryan report. We could say we found the abuse to be disgusting, unbelievable or use any one of numerous other adjectives but such an approach would be inadequate.

Individually and collectively, we must ask for forgiveness for our failures to do much more to prevent this abuse and our failure to listen properly to the evidence put forward in earlier times. We must humbly applaud the courage of those who have spoken out and listen to them as they outline their experience of the full spectrum of this appalling abuse.

The desire for vengeance is understandable. Where prosecutions are warranted they must be taken. Prosecution of the perpetrators is one thing but we must also consider what action should be taken against those who looked the other way and who failed to carry out the responsibilities for which they were being paid. People who failed to act on evidence of abuse are just as guilty of abuse as those who pulled down the pants of young boys and girls and raped them. They too must be held to account.

As a schoolboy I knew many boys who were in residential care. At one time Kilkenny had the largest orphanage in the country. In 1979 there were 115 children in St Joseph's orphanage in Kilkenny. It included a nursery for pre-adoption babies. St Joseph's was about three times the size of the next tier of centres. There was a general sense of pride at this caring institution in our midst. How innocent we were. Local people gave financial support, and many local families took children into their homes at holiday time. Our home in Kilkenny was one of them.

Apart from their hairstyles and the quality of clothing there was nothing to distinguish the boys, who played with us during the summer holidays. There was no outward sign of abuse. We did not understand emotional abuse and we certainly had no knowledge, much less any understanding, of sexual abuse. It was not until the 1990's that the whole area of sexual abuse, including clerical sexual abuse, came into our consciousness.

The befriending scheme, which had widespread support among local families, also had it darker side. The Ryan report deals with the case of a girl who was released to two people, known in the report as Mr. and Mrs. Lacey. They seemed quite old to her and they were introduced to her as her uncle and aunt. She went out for day trips initially and then she spent a couple of weeks over Christmas before going to stay with them permanently. She testified to the commission that, when she was released into the care of the Laceys, things changed. She was sexually abused by Mr. Lacey. He built a corrugated shed in the garden which he used solely for the purpose of raping her. He told her it was a playhouse. She believed Mrs. Lacey knew what was going on as, after being raped, she told her to have a bath. It happened two or three times a week in various places, wherever they were living at the time. They moved around the country to various counties and outside the country in England and Wales.

She now knows that the Laceys were not in fact married. They were of different religions and, although one of the conditions for them to be allowed to foster her was that they would protect her religion, they never brought her to mass or church when she was with them. I believe that none of the local people, who were involved in befriending, knew or suspected that such actions were even remotely possible. The survivors to whom I have spoken have very pleasant memories of their annual holidays with local families. Many of them have maintained enduring friendships.

There has been a good deal of debate about physical abuse. Many people have tried to compare the corporal punishment they endured in their school days with the hardship and abuse meted out to children in residential care. It is like comparing the waves which hit the Cliffs of Moher with the tsunami which hit Indonesia and killed up to 170,000 people. There is simply no comparison.

It is accepted that over the years many children were put into residential care because of neglect, poverty, poor housing, disability, parental separation, desertion, parents' inability to cope and abuse. This does not tell the full story. Some children were transferred to psychiatric institutions which were never investigated by the Ryan commission and should be. Not all children were neglected or abused. "Cruelty" officers of the ISPCC took some children into care. Reflecting back on their work some would acknowledge that rather than protecting children from cruelty they were often used to enforce the moral code of the Catholic church. Children were taken away from unmarried mothers and from widows who had begun to establish a second relationship. The message to the wider community was that children were being rescued from cruel and incompetent parents. It was portrayed as a caring and charitable service for children in need. It was also a reminder, to others, of the need to adhere to the prevailing moral code.

Many children in the orphanage in Kilkenny were from other counties. As Kilkenny had become their home many continue to live locally. As a public representative I meet some of these people regularly. Many are people I got to know in childhood. Even when they had grown into adulthood and had taken up employment victims did not have the vocabulary or the courage to disclose the abuse they endured. While in care they had quickly learned to keep their emotions in check and that they could not trust any authority figure.

Like many other people they occasionally asked public representatives to make representations on their behalf regarding housing or other matters that might be termed as ordinary issues. When they talked about their childhood experiences, as some occasionally did, they did so in whisperings. Like a friend who whispers something in one's ear there were certain norms attached to these conversations: they were not to be repeated; the information was not to be attributed to the teller; and they were a sign of friendship and trust. In hindsight many of them were a plea for help or at least a plea to be believed.

A substantial amount of the Ryan report deals with events between the 1930s and 1970s. I would like to refer to the abuse which continued into, or which emerged, in the 1990s. In early 1993 graphic accounts of a court case involving incest appalled the nation. An inquiry was set up jointly by the Minister for Health and the South Eastern Health Board. Its recommendations were accepted and the process of implementation began immediately including implementation of the Child Care Act. This put a statutory obligation on the health board to promote the welfare of children in its area who were not receiving adequate care and protection.

As a health board member I became well acquainted with child care issues. New policy proposals came before the board almost on a monthly basis. There was some external resistance to change. While the opposition to the introduction of the "Stay Safe" programme had, by then, largely gone away there was some lobbying in opposition to other policy proposals. One which comes to mind was the opposition to the plan to reduce the number of residential places from 120 to 40. This involved the closure of a number of centres. It was in the course of discussion on this proposal that information on abuse in residential care began to emerge. I and other board members quickly learned of the horror of child abuse in residential centres and of the need to prioritise family support schemes as an alternative method of addressing problems.

One of the recommendations of the incest investigation report was that there should be much greater liaison between gardaí and health board staff. In 1994 during discussions between gardaí and health board staff regarding children abused by a clerical person in the county it transpired that there was a possibility that some children who had been in residential care in St. Joseph's may have been at risk because of contact with this person. At an earlier stage I had made contact with the diocese regarding this person's behaviour which was of concern to people in his parish. Gardaí interviewed a large number of people who had been in St. Joseph's. Information emerged regarding abuse which took place between 1972 and 1990. Hundreds of witness statements were taken. Eventually three former staff members, two men and a woman were given lengthy jail sentences for the abuse.

It is to the eternal credit of the some of the local gardaí in Kilkenny that they believed the victims and carried out such a painstaking investigation which was followed by a successful prosecution. Sergeant John Tuohy, and gardaí Eddie Geraghty and John Dirrane are the names which come to mind. There had been few, if any, similar investigations prior to this and not many since that time. At about the same time as the Garda investigation into St. Joseph's was taking place, an investigation by health board staff revealed evidence of systemic abuse in Cappoquin, County Waterford. A nun in charge of the centre was the focus of this investigation. The matter was reported to the Garda. The main allegation was that children in the centre had been made available to local men. Aspects of this allegation have been dealt with in the Ryan report.

I have taken a continued interest in this case and others. I raised matters relating to the role of the State in these matters as far back as 24 April 2002. In a motion on the Adjournment I sought an investigation by the then Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Michael Woods, into the role of the head the inspectorate of reformatory industrial schools in giving a clean bill of health to some housemasters and convicted paedophiles like David Murray and Myles Brady in Kilkenny. The Department of Education and Science was at the centre of the matters that were coming to the attention of public representatives and officialdom in the Garda Síochána. It stood idly by while this individual was allowed to roam free. The response I got from the then Minister for Education and Science was a request for me to give him more information rather than to investigate the complaints I had made. I agree with Deputy Rabbitte. I also met Loretto Byrne, a Department official from Dublin, who was treated as a crank and dismissed. However, the officials from the Department of Education and Science involved at the time were promoted.

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