John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)

My involvement in this issue started when I spoke to my colleague, Deputy Noonan, about a short article we had both read in a national newspaper. We were surprised that the report suggested there had been an increase in the number of legally-held handguns in this country. A couple of other Deputies later told me they knew of people who had applied for and received permission to purchase handguns, even though they were not members of shooting clubs. It seems that certain superintendents are perfectly prepared to give people permission to buy guns simply because the people in question want to own a gun. I decided to submit some parliamentary questions on the matter and received my first substantive response on 17 June 2008, as follows:

I have been informed by the Garda authorities that there has been an increase in the number of handguns licensed in this jurisdiction since 2004 following a legal challenge taken on the temporary custody order made in 1972 by the then Minister for Justice. Prior to that it was generally not the practice to issue licences for handguns.

The figures given to me by the Minister spoke for themselves. The cumulative number of licensed handguns increased from zero in 2003-04 to 305 in 2004-05, to 946 in 2005-06, to 1,367 in 2006-07 and to 1,701 in 2007-08. I think Deputies on both sides of the House were genuinely surprised when I read out those figures in the Chamber. Frankly, they were shocked. Members had assumed there was a ban on handguns. The fact that people in this country could get their hands on handguns quite freely was news to them. It has been assumed that members of the general public were prohibited from accessing handguns.

I propose to set out, in layman's terms, what has happened. The licensing of handguns in this country was liberalised in 2004, following a number of legal challenges. The loosening of the law governing the licensing of handguns has resulted, since 2004, in the issuing of approximately 1,800 handgun licences by Garda superintendents throughout the country. When I asked senior gardaí in my constituency of Waterford to tell me what the situation was, they made it clear that they were not happy about the distinct lack of uniformity in this area. They complained that although guidelines should have been introduced to govern the licensing of handguns, that had not been done. They told me they discouraged applications for handgun licences as much as possible. They mentioned that an individual had taken the Garda superintendent in Waterford city to the High Court after he refused to issue a licence for a handgun. The judge in the case ruled against the force, on the basis that if one is prepared to give an individual a licence for a shotgun or a rifle, there is no good reason one should not give that person a licence for a handgun. That left the Garda Síochána in my constituency in an interesting position. The members of the force feel they are in a compromising position.

If the Garda in my constituency are reticent about issuing handgun licences - it does everything it can to limit the number of such licences - who is issuing all the licences mentioned in the Minister's reply? It has become clear that superintendents in certain districts and divisions around the country are perfectly prepared to issue handgun licences. Having tabled three or four parliamentary questions on the matter, I finally received a response last year that painted a fairly disturbing picture. The comparative statistics for the various Garda divisions speak for themselves. Some 188 handgun licences were issued in the Wexford Garda division in 2007-08. In Dublin North Central seven were issued, in Wicklow, 161, and in Mayo 14. There is no uniformity in the system of licensing. It has been carried out in an ad hoc and subjective manner. The district figures are worse, some recording 108 handgun licences others one or none, in many cases. After The Irish Times published those figures people accepted that this area needed immediate regulation.

I read and listen to commentators giving out about the cost of parliamentary questions and the abuse of them. I am not sure we would be here today debating and pursuing a ban on handguns were it not for the much-maligned and humble parliamentary question. Sometimes it is all we on this side of the House have. We are all labelled legislators but in reality Opposition Members are on occasion only bit players in the legislative process. Our only weapon, if it can be called that, is the parliamentary question. On this side of the House we are painfully used to getting useless, bland and diversionary replies. Occasionally, however, they yield figures which in some cases, like this one, reveal a problem.

I followed the debate in the House last week to an extent when some speakers questioned the existence of a handgun culture. I disagree with them on the basis of the numbers involved. According to my latest correspondence from the Office of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, on 18 May, 579 new licences were issued from January to December 2008. There is a handgun culture which has grown rapidly, as the figures prove. Interestingly, the figures from November 2008 when the Minister announced the ban are much lower, month for month. That trend seems to have continued into 2009 when in the first four months of the year 81 handgun licences were issued. For the corresponding period in 2008, 215 were issued. It is clear that some superintendents around the country have stopped issuing these licences pending legislative clarity. Some have continued to issue them.

One speaker last week made a strong case for gun and shooting clubs and said, "there is no credible evidence to link legally held handguns with crime of any kind". When I heard that I recalled that last January a gang held up a gun dealer 20 or 30 miles from where I live and took handguns. He was not the only gun dealer targeted by criminals looking for handguns. Last November, in the North, a gun dealer was robbed and the haul included two Glock 9 mm pistols a Sig Sauer 9 mm pistol and six other target pistols.

The gardaí in my constituency referred me to a robbery in which the robbers left the shotgun and rifle but took the handgun. The members of these 40-odd gun clubs may be of good character but the more handguns are licensed the more will make their way into the hands of criminals. That occurs fairly regularly. The gardaí in my constituency have always been at pains to point out that there is no guarantee that guns will not be stolen from individual householders as this kind of proliferation grows and that is why they do not issue licences. The Garda Ombudsman, Kathleen O'Toole, makes the same point. She says these guns have got into the hands of criminals in this way in other jurisdictions.

I was surprised that in the debate last week people who had reservations about the ban never mentioned the gardaí or their views on the matter. I have taken my lead from the senior officers in my constituency based on their experience and opinion of, this matter. They are under no illusion about what needs to happen. They believe that the sooner this Bill is passed and enacted the better. During the course of the debate over the past 12 months we also heard from the Garda Commissioner, Fachtna Murphy. When he appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts late last year I asked a colleague to put a question to him about handguns. I was struck less by what the Commissioner said than by the way he said it. He mentioned that it is a strange position for the Garda to be on the one hand licensing Glock pistols and on the other trying to take them out of the hands of criminals. His eagerness to answer the question struck me. There was almost a sense of relief in the room when he had the opportunity to deal with what I believe he believed to be an issue that was being allowed to get out of control.

It is worth considering the alternative to a ban on handguns and to passing this legislation. In four years there has been a six-fold increase in the number of legally held handguns, making a total of approximately 1,800. If we leave the licensing process as it is there could be 10,000 legally held handguns here over the next five years. I believe society does not want that. It is right to bring some practicality and reality into this debate. Yesterday, I visited the website of a gun dealer in Galway. This shop sells handguns on-line and over the counter. One can buy a Glock 17 for €701.89. The big seller is the Sig Mosquito at €361.49. Until now one did not need to be a member of a shooting club to get one of these Glocks or Sigs or other handguns. That will change with the commencement of aspects of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 in this legislation. Those who have argued against a handgun ban would have a hard time selling it to their constituents, if they showed them this price list.

Most people are not aware that these weapons are being sold in this manner and do not want them sold in this way. Those who argue that there is no handgun culture or that we are treating gun and shooting clubs harshly or who argue that people should have a right to buy and keep as many handguns as they please should explain how the increased proliferation of handguns and the liberalisation of the law would not harm society. The onus is on them to convince me, my colleagues, the Garda and the majority of the public how more of these weapons could possibly be of any benefit to anyone besides their owners.

I agree with the sentiment that we have arrived at this point not because of any public policy decision but because of legal challenges, court decisions which have had the practical effect, intended or not, of liberalising the laws relating to handgun ownership. That is why we need to provide clarity and deal with a situation that was never the objective, aim or purpose of this Legislature.

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