Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)

I welcome the opportunity to say a few words on this issue. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, for cutting his time short.

The issue of gun culture is extremely important. As the Minister of State mentioned, given our history of gun culture here, especially North of the Border, we need to make sure there are stringent controls. For 30 years we saw what free access to guns did to our nation, especially to the six Northern counties and the Border counties. Only the other day, the commemoration of the Dublin-Monaghan Bombing, which was part of the culture of using all sorts of tactics, was marked.

I support sporting organisations that have a proud record and compliment them on how they run their business and insist on their laws being upheld. They act very responsibly. There have been some questions in recent times about why more handguns are licensed in some areas than in others. One simply has to look at how that happens. It happens where there are shooting ranges and sporting activities. It does not happen for the wrong reasons.

I welcome the Minister's agreement that, in the main, the licences already issued will be retained, subject to the law and strict supervision. That is only right. However, the real problem is that we must ensure there is not a gun culture. I was interested to see the comments of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman commissioner, who has a background in the USA and said many guns used in the commission of crime in the United States have been stolen from their rightful owners.

When one understands the situation in the United States and how guns have been available there, one has to question if we are dealing with a situation which is somewhat different. A number of handguns here have been stolen from licensed holder and those guns, by definition, are immediately in criminal hands. I wonder if the Minister, in his conclusion, can give some idea of how many guns which have been stolen have been used, because my understanding is that it is very few.

I have talked at length to several of the people involved in gun clubs and they are very conscious of the dangerous weapon they hold in their hands. They assure me, in no uncertain terms, that they want to retain their rights and work strictly within the law. There is no question about that.

I welcome the fact that in his speech, the Minister emphasises that there was a great deal of consultation in recent times, at an intensive and productive level. The firearms consultative panel was established, comprising shooting interest groups, the Garda Síochána and members of the Department, with the introduction of a firearms licensing regime, provided for under the Criminal Justice Act 2006, and has met on a regular basis in the past 18 months. It has satisfied some of the great anxieties of gun clubs and I welcome that. The Minister said his Department also held a firearms conference in 2008, where more than 100 delegates from shooting interest groups, Departments and the Garda were in attendance. In February 2009, his Department, in conjunction with the Countryside Alliance, held a seminar.

I welcome all that and encourage the Minister to work with legitimate groups to make sure their rightful activities are allowed to continue in a constructive way. I note he mentioned in his speech those individuals going to the Special Olympics would have a possible right to get guns. They would need to have access to training to be eligible for that sort of thing.

I listened with interest to our Sinn Féin colleague, Deputy Ó Snodaigh, advising that there needs to be curtailment of the importation of guns and drugs. I commend the Garda and the other authorities that intercepted the massive amounts of drugs in Cork and other places. Guns were found in some of those drugs hauls. It is vital that we control the drug barons who are responsible for spreading drug use in towns and villages. I question who is ultimately benefitting from some of that funding.

We have had a rash of murders, especially in Limerick and in Dublin. That shows how dangerous guns can be if they get into the wrong hands. One cannot but recall the brilliant proposal by a predecessor of the Minister, Mr. McDowell, for a gun amnesty. He outlined that people would have to bring in their guns and explain about them. Such schemes do not work. One must provide a way for people to leave guns in without drawing attention to themselves. Otherwise, they will not get involved at all. It is important that we get as many illegally held guns out of the system as possible, as they are the ones that will be used to cause the damage and create mayhem and murder. They are the guns that will be used to rob banks and do damage to the future of this country.

One cannot help recalling some of the serious robberies or attempted robberies that took place. I congratulate the Garda once again on its involvement. Some incidents resulted in a sad end in that deaths occurred but at least it was not a garda who died. That brings me to the valid point in the Minister's speech about imitation guns. It is important that they are controlled as well as actual guns because things can happen in a split second and we cannot allow imitation guns to create a danger or to put lives at risk. It might be amusing for a person to walk around with an imitation gun but it would not be a joke if it was mistaken for a real gun and a shot was fired in response to it that resulted in a person losing his or her life. Imitation guns can also be used to scare elderly people in their homes. In addition, they can be used to rob people or to cause them serious hassle.

The previous speaker, the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, mentioned that he was annoyed that the land at Thornton Hall cost as much as it did. He is not the only one who was annoyed at that. I hope that whatever comes out of the Minister's new proposal for Thornton Hall he will be able to make a better job of it than his predecessors.

The developing knife culture is another issue of concern. It is unfortunate that it is so widespread. The Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, reminded us of a case where a young lady was being beaten up and a passerby intervened. Another individual ran into a house and took out an ordinary knife to attack that person, which resulted in a fatal injury. As the Minister rightly said, that caused serious problems for the immediate family and those involved. That case emphasised the fact that an ordinary knife can be a deadly weapon. It shows how difficult it is to control knife culture. There is a danger that young people in particular are carrying certain types of knives in their pockets. We have seen that problem manifested recently in Kerry and other areas where people have died as a result of knife attacks. In one case, what initially started off as a happy occasion turned into a disaster. We must utilise whatever laws we can to curtail that type of incident. I welcome the measures in the Bill aimed at tackling the knife culture. I am encouraged by the fact that the Minister has included that provision in the Bill.

Fine Gael has a strong attitude to the control of illegal guns, knives and other weapons. I have no doubt that in the main we will support the Bill. My party spokesman may wish to amend certain sections but I hope that can be dealt with in a constructive manner on Committee Stage so that the Bill will be as foolproof as possible.

In the United States we have seen mass murders take place in many schools. We have seen what can happen if a gun culture is allowed to take hold. I welcome the Minister's initial statement that he wants to ensure that a gun culture is not allowed in this State. That was the case in the northern part of this country for far too long and it was destructive. As one who lived through that and had many friends involved in all the wrong ways, I wish to ensure that guns are only held by those who are entitled to have them, namely, gun clubs and licensed holders, the Garda and the Army. That is the way it should be. Public safety and control issues are paramount.

The Minister indicated that the number of murders involving firearms had reduced in the past 12 months. I find that difficult to believe but I hope it is true. I welcome the co-operation between the authorities here and other European countries. At a local level the Minister and I appreciate better than most the tremendous co-operation between the Garda and the PSNI in the efforts to deal with the Paul Quinn affair. That incident shows how important it is to have co-operation. It is equally important to have co-operation between various countries to control drugs and arms. I welcome the provisions of the Bill that will eventually lead to a Europe-wide approach to ensuring that arms are not for the use of criminals but those who are legally entitled to use them.

See this speech in context