Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)

This is part of the Government's package to reduce crime, with particular reference to gun and knife crime. It is in line with what the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, stated last year, namely, that one of the main priorities set for the Garda Síochána was to target gun crime in 2009 through a range of measures. I assume the Bill constitutes these. It was listed as one of the five priority bills in the legislative programme for summer 2008. We now have it. I am not sure of the extent to which that would halt the vicious cycle of crime and gangland murder in particular in this city, in Limerick and other parts of the country.

The Bill changes the licensing system and goes as far as to state that no new licences will be issued for handguns, with very limited exceptions, such as for use by those involved in Olympic sports only. A new three year licensing system is to be introduced for firearms. Existing handgun licences will be subject to the new rigorous licensing procedures where their renewal is sought. I welcome the amendments to the European Arrest Warrant Act 2003, which have been identified as being necessary to improve the operation of the legislation and to deal with issues that have come to light in the administration of the European arrest warrant, EAW, system. We discussed those in committee. I do not see any difficulty with those changes.

The Minister has proposed a number of modest amendments to the Bail Act 1997, one of which will clarify that any money paid under recognisance to a prison governor, for example, or any other designated person, shall be deemed to be a payment into court. There are real problems with bail and if this is the extent of the Minister's reform then we cannot expect a resolution to many of the problems relating to the bail regime, which in spite of the legislation that followed the referendum approximately 13 years ago, is still one of the most lax in the western world. In conjunction with the Courts Service and the Garda Síochána, we have still not set about ensuring there is a minimum time lapse between the arrest, charging and cautioning of an individual and that individual being brought to court. That is where the bail problem lies, namely, the inordinate and lengthy delay between a person's arrest and coming to trial. As a result, thousands of crimes, some of them very serious, are being committed by persons granted bail by the courts. I do not accept what the Minister has said on numerous occasions, that bail is exclusively a matter for the courts. We, as legislators, have a role to play in setting out the terms and conditions under which persons may be granted bail by the courts.

The Bill also includes permission to exchange information through the Schengen information system, SIS, when it is operational. There will be cost implications in that regard to which the Minister has not adverted. Perhaps our participation in the Schengen information system may have to be paused in the same way as Thornton Hall and a range of other issues have been abandoned in recent times.

The Bill also makes provision for the certification of evidence on the part of certain staff of the Garda technical bureau so that it may not be necessary to appear in court to confirm orally the status of particular pieces of evidence in all cases. I welcome that.

The provisions on handguns are perhaps the most controversial element of the Bill. The Minister repeated what he said on numerous occasions, that we now have a handgun culture. I am not so sure that we do, but the Minister says we have and he is basing his legislative changes on this handgun culture.

In July 2008, The Irish Times reported on comments made by Mr. Justice Peter Charleton. I read his comments. He is one of a number of judges to deal with the matter of handguns. He said that reasonable people are "entitled to feel alarmed" about the large increase in the number of guns licensed in Ireland. He stated that there is "a pressing need" for drawing together into a clear law the multiple "piecemeal" rules on the control of firearms here, and the increasing numbers of weapons licensed for personal use, 1,600 in 2007. He went on to say that this was "exactly the opposite" to what happened in Britain where handguns had been banned in line with the recommendations of the Dunblane inquiry. I am not so sure that the actions that followed the Dunblane inquiry in Britain had the effect of reducing gangland crime, gun murders or activities involving handguns across the water. If the Minister has evidence to the contrary, which I am sure his officials can supply, I would be happy to hear from him as to the success of the recommendations of the Dunblane inquiry, upon which some of these legislative measures are based.

I accept that the statistics appear to warrant some concern. In 2007, the number of incidents involving a firearm amounted to 1,188, compared to 1,250 in 2006, and 1,259 in 2005. The number of murders in 2008 involving a firearm was 21 in 2008, some 18 in 2007, some 27 in 2006, and 23 in 2005. The number of stolen firearms is a matter of some dispute. A total of 27 handguns have been reported stolen since 2005 and 30% of those were recovered. The figures in this regard in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda Síochána and the Central Statistics Office differ. The Minister should clarify matters by informing the House of the situation regarding stolen handguns or whether there is any evidence to suggest that stolen handguns have been used in recent atrocities or robberies with violence. The Minister probably has the data for 2008 on the number of incidents involving firearms and the number of firearms stolen. The statistics should help not only to form Government opinion but public opinion as to the handgun culture referred to by the Minister.

I agree that the safety and security of firearms is paramount. There is a significant duty of care and a heavy burden to be imposed on anybody licensed to carry a firearm. I include a farmer with a shotgun to an extent not that much less than a person licensed to carry a handgun. A simple regulation which the Minister could have imposed, and which I urge him to consider, is that all firearms, irrespective of their class, must be housed in a safe at all times when not in use. Safe and secure storage appliances can be purchased for a couple of hundred euro. All firearms and ammunition should be stored in a safe by the licensee when not in use.

There is a concern at the number of firearms that are licensed. The total number of licensed firearms in the State is approximately 233,000. It is interesting to note that between 2004 and 2006 the number of firearms issued remained static at approximately 220,000 but between 2007 and 2008 the numbers jumped to 233,000. That might not seem like a large percentage but it is an additional 12,000 firearms in the State in a three-year period. I note the Minister's comments on what Mr. Justice Charleton said. The judge referred to the increase in the number of firearms since 1972 when there was a ban on firearms because of the Northern situation. The reality is that pre-1972 there were far more guns licensed than is the case today.

I am concerned also at the major inconsistencies that currently exist on the granting of handgun licences in particular. Those inconsistencies emerged through parliamentary questions tabled in the main by my colleague, Deputy Deasy. It is apparent that some Garda districts granted no licences for handguns while others in more sparsely populated areas have been much more liberal, issuing between 50 and 100 licences per year. The Minister has stated that there are now approximately 1,800 handguns licensed, which was not as a result of a considered or deliberate public policy decision. The reason for the variation was that each superintendent in each district could make an independent decision on the certification of a handgun. There were no guidelines available to the superintendent.

I am pleased the Bill makes provision for strict guidelines for the issuing of firearm certificates. However, I am not sure if I accept the Minister's thesis that we have a handgun culture in this country. The consumerism of the Celtic tiger era gave rise to a phenomenon of the "deckland man" purchasing hot tubs for relaxation, as David McWiliams put it, but I am not sure if we can then say that there was a hot tub culture just because 1,000 hot tubs were purchased in a given area. I do not believe that we have a hot tub culture, no more than I accept we have a handgun culture. That is not to say there is no problem, but it is not alarming as the Minister appears to suggest. It suits his hard man image, but the Minister will be judged by his results.

I am concerned that the Minister is focussing entirely on legally held firearms, which shifts the attention away from the far more serious problem caused by illegal firearms across the State. It is common knowledge that criminal gangs have easy access to dangerous firearms and there is evidence to suggest that they travel overseas to avail of top-of-the-range training facilities. I raised this with a delegation of Czech MPs who visited the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights last year. They accepted that firearms ranges were being run so liberally that it was possible for people to engage in highly sophisticated firearms training and target practice without showing any form of identification. It was widely reported that criminal gang figures from this country were engaging in such training at a cost of approximately €50 per session, and availing of the reduced air fares to travel from Dublin. They could travel to places like the Czech Republic, engage in such training, come back to this State and carry out gangland atrocities.

I ask the Minister to urge his European colleagues to deal with this issue, so that we can ensure a certain harmonisation of our laws and then criminals form this country will no longer be able to engage in such sophisticated weapons training within the EU. However, I ask him to direct his attention in the first instance towards the serious matter of illegal firearms as part of a broader effort to tackle criminality in Ireland. Every consignment of drugs that come into this country illegally usually contains a box of illegal firearms. This is the issue that should be addressed in the first instance, rather than a crackdown on legally held guns, as evidence must still be adduced to show that legally held firearms have been involved in criminal acts in the State.

We should also be in a position to account for stolen handguns and for those that have been recovered, particularly those that may have been stolen from members of the Garda Síochána or members of the Defence Forces. In reply to a recent parliamentary question, the Minister showed that the figures were quite small in terms of misplaced or stolen firearms belonging to these State organisations.

I am concerned at the Minister's use of the Bill as a blunt instrument to focus the attention of the Government towards firearms and weaponry. In November last year, Fine Gael published the Criminal Justice (Violent Crime Prevention) Bill to tighten up loopholes around sentencing, automatic remission and penalties for possession of blades and firearms. In relation to firearms, we proposed two specific measures, one of which was the mandatory reporting of loss or theft of any firearms or ammunition. Any licensee who failed to report such a loss or theft could be subject, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine; on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to a fine or both.

The second measure was to increase substantially the penalty for possession of an unlawful firearm: on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €50,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or both. These are tough penalties but I believe this reflects the seriousness of the matter at hand. I will discuss these amendments in more detail with the Minister on Committee Stage.

I note from previous statements that the Minister proposed to review the legislation regarding the licensing of guns on an annual basis, but there appears to be no provision in the Bill, so this could be addressed on Committee Stage also. It is worth noting and commenting on the low level of prosecution and convictions secured from incidents recorded involving firearms. In 2004, only 38% of 1,224 incidents had proceedings commenced of which 19% resulted in a conviction rate. In 2006, this figure had been reduced to 10.8%. I realise in some cases proceedings may be ongoing, but the low conviction rate is a cause for concern.

Both the Minister and his predecessor are on record stating that there was no need to introduce legislation that would specifically ban samurai swords. I have raised this matter time and again with him. I am pleased he has identified the sword issue as being a particular problem, and I support his provision on this. The penalties for possession of a knife have been increased in the Bill. A person guilty of the offence can, on summary conviction, be fined up to €5,000 or imprisoned for up to 12 months. For conviction on indictment, a person can be fined and-or imprisoned for up to five years. I accept what he is doing to increase the penalties, but I am not sure if enough is being done to enforce the law sufficiently on knife crime.

While the number of murders committed involving knives declined last year, the number of offences for possession of a knife is dramatically rising. In just five years, there has been a 72% increase in offences relating to possession of offensive weapons, mainly knives, which have led to proceedings. However, only 32% of cases have led to conviction. What is the difficulty there? Is there a problem with evidence? Why is our conviction rate so low? Three out of ten knife crime offenders are under 20, so it is vital that second level students are targeted directly through their schools.

The Minister launched a knife awareness campaign this February with a budget of €200,000 and promised a series of road shows to visit schools and an nationwide advertising campaign. As part of the campaign, the Minister promised to build a presence on social networking sites such as Bebo, Facebook and Twitter, in order to deliver the campaign message to his target audience. This was the new approach to tackle knife crime. This approach has failed miserably.

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