Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Fianna Fail)

I am pleased to contribute to the debate on the Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Bill 2009. The purpose of the Bill is to provide a proper statutory basis for the existing work of the Garda Síochána, Defence Forces, Revenue Commissioners and Customs and Excise, as appropriate, in the use of secret surveillance methods in preventing and detecting serious crime and safeguarding the security of the State against subversive and terrorist threats. In regulating this area by law the Government is removing possible legal obstacles deriving from constitutional or Convention on Human Rights privacy considerations. The Bill will ensure material obtained by secret surveillance may be used as evidence to support other direct evidence on criminal charges or on its own for charges of conspiracy.

Much of the work of the relevant agencies is directed at serious gangland crime. A multi-agency approach is often taken to the targeting of criminals, particularly in cases where, in addition to the commission of serious criminal offences involving witness intimidation, assaults, murder and extortion, other offences connected with money laundering, for example, drugs and firearms importation activities, may be involved. A crucial element of strategy in such cases is the secret gathering of important information about planning, movements, contacts and methods of operation using the latest technological aids, devices and expertise available to police and security services worldwide.

While the Garda is already good at performing such tasks, they are primarily undertaken for intelligence gathering purposes and the force has been reluctant for legal and operational reasons to use as evidence information gathered in this way. The Government must make available all possible tools to the Garda Síochána, Defence Forces and other State agencies to tackle this serious threat to the State.

The south Tipperary-west Waterford area has been affected by armed gangland activity, most of which has drugs at its root. While illicit drugs cause misery for those who use them, they provide rich pickings for gangs and the thugs who peddle them. It is beyond time that the Garda Síochána were armed and equipped with all available tools to enable them to tackle gangs. For this reason, I fully support the surveillance measures proposed in the Bill. In accepting that such measures have been a cause of concern in the past, there should be no doubt about our determination to meet head on the serious challenge we face. The Garda Commissioner and Minister are correct to show serious intent in this matter. The enactment of this legislation is vital as it will send out a message to blackguards and thugs that ordinary people will not allow themselves to be terrorised.

In Limerick and other areas members of the public going about their lawful business have faced a naked threat. In some cases where persons gave evidence in court, entire families and neighbourhoods have been threatened and in one recent case, a family member of a witness paid the ultimate price and lost his life. This is shocking, outrageous and intolerable and cannot be allowed to continue.

I am concerned about recent events in my constituency of Tipperary South to which State agencies appear to have helped to relocate some marauding gangsters. I do not ask that south Tipperary should not be treated as sacred. Some people have moved from towns where there have been minor problems with intimidation, as occurs in every town, to outlying areas of my constituency. In a recent incident, people picking up their children from school were caught up in what can only be described as a scene from the wild west when gangsters made an assassination attempt in a quiet country village. It is frightening that young people witnessed this incident.

With the support of the emergency response unit, Garda superintendents and their officers, whether working in the drug squad, fraud squad or other areas, are willing and able to deal with the problem of gangs. However, a proper legal framework must be in place to enable them to perform their duties and bring criminals to justice. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. It is vital, however, that people are not afraid to give evidence and provide a valuable service to the State. We are fortunate to have a jury system because it has served us well. While it may be past time, the legislation will be effective in addressing a serious problem.

Certain groups that claim to work for civil rights and so on may object to this Bill. The rights of ordinary people were trampled on during the Celtic tiger and ordinary law abiding citizens continue to be harassed, intimidated and threatened. Our forefathers did not fight to free this country to allow gangsters take control of it.

As a board member of Muintir na Tíre and a member of the second oldest community alert group in the country, I support any activities and continually urge the public to support the Garda Síochána and use their community alert neighbourhood watch groups, be vigilant and aware, contact their local gardaí, use the freephone numbers and pass on information on any kind of strange activity to relevant bodies. The gardaí will not mind hearing every little piece of information on a serious situation. It is vital they receive support, information and different leads. One telephone call could be very important in linking a serious situation.

We had shooting incidents and intimidation in my community in recent weeks. Many families contacted me in recent times to express their concerns about unlawful intimidating activities in their areas. I have written to the superintendents in Clonmel, Cahir and Dungarven recently to thank them for their swift and prompt action and for using the emergency response unit, CAB and all the vehicles of the State to show the gangsters this situation will not be tolerated. From what I have heard, the public are delighted and pleased. Unfortunately, we cannot have a garda at every crossroads.

I spoke to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, recently when there were media reports on the downgrading of rural stations. In my area, we lobbied ten years ago for the reopening and reoccupying of a number of local Garda stations, namely, Ballyporeen, Clogheen and Ardfinnan. I compliment and thank the gardaí who have moved, in some cases with their families, to live in local station houses and communities.

The communities concerned now have confidence in the gardaí. There is no replacement for it. There is no point in driving a squad car, unmarked car or motorbike on an occasional basis. There is no replacement for the garda on the beat, in the butcher's shop, in the GAA field training the lads or bringing his own children to matches or school.

People have the confidence to get to know them and feel free to ring them or drop into the station when it is open to meet them to pass on minor pieces of information. They are not informers in away way, shape or form and should not have that tag attached to them. They are interested in making a good, clean, honest living for themselves and their families in the community. Without the gardaí and public support for them, we cannot have that. The gardaí cannot police on their own. They need the support of the community and in the vast majority of areas they have such support.

Muintir na Tíre, which runs the community alert programme nationally, in conjunction with the Garda Síochána, does a great deal of work. It has a number of field offices throughout the different provinces whose members go out to community alert and neighbourhood watch groups to encourage and train them to be active and hold various functions. They empower people to come together and have confidence in themselves and they do so with the support of gardaí who address meetings and make people feel easy about ringing them at any time, day or night. Many local gardaí are grateful that members of the public have their mobile phone numbers.

We often criticise the gardaí for not being available, but they are on duty 24-7 via their mobile or home phone numbers. Such members of the Garda Síochána provide a wonderful service and we should never forget that. A number of them have paid a price for that, as we saw recently in Donegal, which activity must be condemned.

I hate the term but we experienced the "heavy hand of the law" in my own local area in recent weeks. It was badly needed because some gangsters had moved from the towns. The Celtic tiger was bad in that way, in that many houses were built and bought by people as rental properties. One does not know to whom one is renting. In many cases, when one rents a house and then finds one has a troublesome tenant or one who engages in suspicious activities, one cannot remove him or her.

There was an incident in my locality yesterday evening, where some gangsters went into a pub, asked to be served and, when they were refused, threatened to burn the place down. Such outrageous and unacceptable behaviour must be stamped out. These thugs must be shown they cannot and will not succeed.

I compliment the garda officers involved because we have an unarmed Garda force. Their bravery, diligence and duty in facing up to gangsters must be commended and applauded. We must support them and continue to do so. We must have the proper surveillance and legislation to allow for this. As other speakers have said, we trust it will not be abused. I do not lightly say "to hell with all the people who say we cannot have this and ask about civil liberties". At what cost civil liberties? Is it at the cost of people not being able to sleep peacefully in their homes?

I met two groups today, the Vintners' Association of north and south Tipperary and a group from the chamber of commerce from the south east. All these groups are struggling to do business, which has become much tougher. They are all paying their rates, taxes and workers and have associated insurance and other costs

The publicans now have a much more difficult job in dealing with unlawful activity. We had the smoking ban and other legislation. We expect them to run good houses, which they do. They can be under threat from people, some of which is more subtle than one might think, and may have to deal with extortion and other issues. It is difficult enough to survive in business without any semblance of extortion, bullying, or the outrageous threat that if somebody is refused drink for their own safety if in command of a motorbike or other vehicle, a publican could be burned out of house and home.

It is high time we had this legislation and get these thugs off our streets. We cannot have any hand wringing, crying or gnashing of teeth, or people saying it is too tough. We must preserve our democracy. We have freedom of expression and the right, under the Constitution, to live without fear or favour and go about ordinary daily living without being threatened or intimidated.

The gardaí are getting on top of the situation in Limerick and I hope they deal with it soon. I listened to a radio programme last Sunday where a family man told his story. It sent a message home to every law-abiding citizen in our State that we are under a threat which must be treated very seriously. We must deal with it and we all must put our shoulders to the wheel and support the institutions of the State.

I was delighted to see the moves made by CAB in my own town of Clonmel in recent days. It seized property it decided, following investigation, was obtained from unlawful revenue from drug dealing and other crimes. This situation is frightening and unnerving for rural and urban communities, but rural communities may be further away from a Garda station or patrol. It is good to have mobile patrols. People are entitled to sleep in their beds at any time of the day or night, to keep their door open or unlocked and not be under threat.

"Threats" would be too strong a description, but I have often received phone calls when I make a public statement or do something else in support of the Garda Síochána, which I did recently, and again this morning. I said in the past when people are convicted of these activities and have served their sentence, there should be double checks on where they get their dole or rent allowance from. As taxpayers, we cannot provide such payments. The people concerned can be in bed all day and out all night. When other people are trying to sleep they are out planning, plotting and terrorising. If they have past involvement in crime, and the Garda knows that, they must be watched and tagged, not physically but placed under surveillance.

Our criminal justice system must also be changed. Our prisons are sometimes more like hotels, with a choice of menus and other facilities.

We cannot just lock them up and throw away the key. Community service should be considered more seriously. There is much work to be done. Much damage is being done by these people in communities; why not have them out doing the repair work? It is also good physical and mental therapy for them. When they do work such as this which is therapeutic and beneficial to the community, their mindsets can be changed and they can become exemplary citizens. It is a struggle in communities at the moment with the cutbacks in certain areas, and people may wish to develop playground or community facilities. This Bill should include provision for community service as a real option.

I commend our judges on the hard job they do. They should have refresher courses on an ongoing basis because matters are constantly evolving. There is no comparison between the situation in 2009 and that which obtained ten years ago and we must keep adapting.

On the retirement age in the Garda Síochána, senior officers, inspectors and sergeants, and ordinary gardaí should be allowed to stay in the force if they so wish. This is because of their valuable acumen; there is no substitute for the experience they have gained over long and dedicated careers. It is a pity that if they wish to stay on a few more months or years they cannot do so. They should be encouraged and facilitated, otherwise we are losing a major resource. Although security is a concern, we should as far as possible bring in white-collar workers to do much of the paperwork in Garda stations to allow more gardaí on the beat. We need them to integrate with the public and we need the public to engage with them and support them.

I compliment the Minister and wish the legislation God speed. I hope it will be up and running soon so we can tackle together the atrocious situation that pertains in many communities. We need to rid ourselves of that and get back to peaceful living.

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