David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)

I am aghast that two Ministers of State who were supposed to speak have not appeared for tonight's debate. They must be so extraordinarily busy that they did not need to turn up. Ministers should be here for the entire debate. I sat here through the debate last night and tonight. Ministers come and go. They come in, make a brief contribution and leave again. It shows the contempt with which Ministers treat this House especially during a debate on the role of Ministers of State. We were criticised by almost all Ministers of State who came in tonight for not having a wide-ranging discussion on Dáil reform. We have been trying to have a wide-ranging discussion on Dáil reform for years but the Government will not engage with us on it. Even the Ceann Comhairle has tried his utmost in a neutral, non-political fashion to get this going but the Government has not engaged. It is frustrating for all of us because we want see change.

Today and yesterday, we decided to devote our precious Private Members' time to the role of the Ministers of State because we thought it was so important. The Ministers and Ministers of State who came to the House told us we should debate many other issues but we believe this role is so crucial it deserves three hours of debate. Its purpose is to enhance, recognise and value the role of Ministers and State, which is what we have done by devoting all our Private Members' time to it.

It has been said by the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, that when matters get complicated, one needs more Ministers of State. Following the last general election, more Ministers of State were appointed but at that stage we were still in a boom and things were still going well. Now, we are moving into complicated times. Does this mean the Government will appoint even more Ministers of State? If one follows the logic, that should happen.

When Deputy Cowen took over as Taoiseach, many of us expected that he would reduce the number of Ministers of State and that he would show leadership but he has not done so. We need leadership from the Taoiseach and the Government but it has not been forthcoming. As my colleagues have pointed out, we are asking schools, including special needs schools, across the country to cut back on teachers, we are asking for special classes to be abolished, we are asking for the number of home helps to be reduced and we are asking nurses to work longer and harder but, at the same time, we have the same number of Ministers of State in position. We, including the Government and the Taoiseach, must set an example and show leadership. We cannot allow special needs teachers and classes throughout the country to be abandoned and betrayed by Government and, at the same time, carry on in this House as if nothing matters.

I have examined the number of Ministers of State. I find there is a problem in that one could end up diluting the role if there are more Ministers of State. It is a question of too many chiefs and not enough Indians. We devalue the role by having a ministry for almost everyone in the audience, which is what has happened.

I do not want to personalise this because I have personal respect for my colleagues opposite and I do not want to name names or say someone is not doing a good job. What I suggest is that one could, for example, combine responsibility for health promotion and food safety with responsibility for older people. This is not impossible and would make sense. It would also remove one ministerial role. One could combine responsibility for lifelong learning and school transport with responsibility for science, technology and innovation, which would also make sense and one Minister of State could quite easily do that work, as happened in the past — again, that is another Minister of State gone. One could combine responsibility for local services and responsibility for housing and development, which would make sense and, in fact, one role would complement the other. This could be done without too much pain, apart from the fact one Minister of State would have to relinquish a position.

It would be feasible to combine responsibility for food and horticulture and responsibility for fisheries and forestry with no problem, so, again, one of the ranks of Ministers of State would go. One could combine responsibility for labour affairs and responsibility for trade and commerce, given that when I first came to the House in 1997, that was the position and those roles were combined. One could combine responsibility for the drugs strategy and community affairs with responsibility for integration policy. What is happening in some areas is that some Ministers of State have overlapping responsibility.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs is not overly busy. He seems to spend a lot of his time opening hotels, turning sods, topping off buildings and so on, so I see no reason why responsibility for overseas development could not return to the responsibility of the Minister. The Minister of State, Deputy Hoctor, who has thankfully stayed with us, asked earlier whether Fine Gael values older people. We do, greatly, and we value having an office for older people and a Minister of State with responsibility for older people. However, that does not mean we must have a Minister of State just for older people. It is quite possible the office could be complemented by being amalgamated with another role, as I suggested.

The Minister of State, Deputy Curran, suggested we are being populist but, as I said earlier, that is not the case. In fact, we value the role of Ministers of State so much that we wanted to devote our time specifically to this role. The Minister of State, Deputy Curran, also said he was in favour of Dáil reform, to which I will return shortly. The Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt, said he wants more Dáil reform and I hope he will back this up when talking to his colleagues. He also said there are too many committees. We could have included the committees as a focus of this debate but that would have taken the focus away from Ministers of State and we wanted to pay them a compliment, if one likes, and value them by focusing on them during this debate.

The Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, informed us that the Government decides the role and number of Ministers of State, which is the position. He also made the interesting point that the number of Ministers of State and Ministers should correspond. I remind the Minister of State that at this stage we have 15 Ministers and 20 Ministers of State. It has gone way beyond the number that is required.

Deputy Mansergh also made the point he was one of the first to offer to resign. Another speaker noted that when the Taoiseach was safely away in Japan, 11 Ministers of State decided they would offer themselves up and said that if the Taoiseach wanted to make cutbacks, they would accept them.

A Cheann Comhairle, what is the position with regard to speaking time?

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