John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)

I am pleased to make a contribution to this motion and commend Deputies Hogan and Stanton for tabling it on behalf of Fine Gael. Listening to the previous speakers, including Ministers of State, I do not wish to personalise the issue in any way. There was a suggestion that Fine Gael was selective in this motion regarding Ministers of State and that it was not concerned about Dáil reform. My colleague, Deputy Stanton and others introduced a comprehensive document last week on Dáil reform.

It has also been suggested that we raised a topic which should not be raised. Before I attended the Chamber I looked at some past press reports. In the Irish Examiner on 15 March a report stated 11 of the 20 Ministers of State said they would accept any moves by the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen to remove them from their positions. The point being made is that this Fine Gael motion has not addressed this topic, it has been brought up in public and on the other side of the House.

My only interest is that the business of Government is run in an efficient and transparent way, where the public is seen to get an efficient service from the people it elects and from the Ministers and Ministers of State who run the various Departments. For me personally, this motion is not about any individual who is a Minister of State. It is about the system in which they are asked to operate.

We have arrived at a situation where the public does not get an efficient service or value for money. Over the years, and in particular in 2007, extra Minister of State posts were created not to give a better service but to help cobble together a Government and retain power. People were identified first and then jobs had to be found for them. That might be a good way to hang on to power but it is not an acceptable use of resources no matter who is in Government.

If we are going to tackle the recession in our country we must all live within our means. That starts at the top and includes Deputies, and whatever else has to be done. We are starting at the top level. Fine Gael last week made wide-ranging suggestions on this matter and I commend our party leader and his Front Bench colleagues for bringing them forward at this time.

The Government has asked for suggestions from this side of the House and now we are giving them. Someone has to give the lead on this matter and I am glad Fine Gael has provided it. Let us compare that with how the Government side of the House has reacted. When, a couple of months ago, a number of Ministers of State offered up their posts, if they were to be taken away, they were more or less slapped on the wrist and told to keep quiet and get on with their jobs. This reminded me of the lectures that were given by the Taoiseach at the time, Mr. Haughey, in the 1980s when we were all told to tighten our belts, when, meanwhile, people at the top of the pile continued their extravagant lifestyle as before.

The motto then was, and seems to be still, "Do as I say, not as I do". This cannot go on. I tabled a question earlier today about the withdrawal of a school library service in Mayo in the October budget. The net effect of the decision on the ground is that books for special needs pupils are no longer being provided to children in certain primary schools as heretofore. I cannot get transport to a school sanctioned for a special needs child even though it would not cost anything extra as the parents were willing to link up with transport that already exists.

Schools in Mayo and throughout the country are losing their rural co-ordinators because of cutbacks. Is it not reasonable that some of these services could be maintained if the number of ministerial posts were reduced? The Government is not willing to take the lead and set an example from the top.

I have refrained, and I want to emphasise this point, from naming any Ministers of State in my contribution because it is not my intention to take cheap shots at anybody. I have dealt with many Ministers of State and know many of them personally. When I eventually find out who is in control of a particular situation I have always found the Ministers of State concerned to be courteous and helpful, but that is not the issue here.

It is crazy that some Departments have four Ministers of State reporting to the senior Minister. How can there be efficiency when there is such duplication? The whole system needs to be simplified and reduced so that a more efficient system is delivered by fewer people who have very clear roles. This should apply no matter who is in Government. We are not asking the other side of the House do something that we on this side are not prepared to do ourselves.

It is not acceptable that a support staff of 187 is employed to service 20 Ministers of State at a cost of €8 million when we look, for instance, at the disproportionate effect of the education cuts in small schools where three teacher schools are to lose one teacher, a third of their staff. People are entitled to be very annoyed and even outraged when they see what is going on in the running of Government, where there is continual wastage and, meanwhile, the vulnerable are falling through the cracks in our health and education services.

Given the acknowledgement by so many Fianna Fáil and Green Party Deputies of the need to review the number of Ministers of State and the number of committees, I am surprised they do not propose to support the Fine Gael motion. This motion represents an ideal opportunity to take action on these issues. The Government has sought proposals from the Opposition. Now it has been presented with an ideal way of showing the bona fides of its request.

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