John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this pre-budget debate. I consider Deputy Coveney to be a reasonable guy. I have heard him speak at committee meetings at various stages and I am interested in the contribution he has just made. It is different. It was made without political rhetoric. I also listened to his colleague Deputy Bruton and the suggestions he made. I have paid tribute to his approach to some matters in the House. In broad-brush strokes, therefore, I agree with some of the suggestions being made. However, I also listened to others who made a contribution and must say the following to Deputy Coveney who will have had experience of this. As a businessman making hard decisions, coming here to this bubble for three days would make one believe we were about to sink, or that we were sinking, and that there was no hope whatsoever. The only saving grace for me in my thinking on the economy and where we are going, without being political about it, is that in my position as a Minister of State I link up with the county enterprise boards and Enterprise Ireland. They are real people who put their money where their mouth is. They are creating jobs; they are travelling abroad and understand the economy from a real perspective because they are pinched by us every day of the week. They are much more positive, in spite of the challenges, than we are. When I hear the general volume and tone of the debate here, it is not about the economy, rather it is about, notwithstanding what Deputy Coveney stated, which I appreciate, political point scoring. It is about some notion that the country is completely rudderless, has gone off the rails and gone crazy, and that we have an international reputation that is so damaged we cannot raise money. Some of what Deputy Coveney stated is linked with this.

The other point made in the debate is that there is no leadership, that we do not know what is going on and that the Taoiseach or anyone else will not listen. I listen to what is being said here. I do not just listen to Deputy Cowen because he is Taoiseach or Deputy Brian Lenihan because he is Minister for Finance. I like to hear what they have to say because I want to get something out of it for the jobs I am trying to protect within my own business and for those with whom I work in Enterprise Ireland and the county enterprise boards. I hear what the Taoiseach is saying. I read Building Ireland's Smart Economy and listen to the answers given to Deputy Coveney's party leader two days a week. I put it all together and it gives me a sense that there is a destination that will be reached but that all of us will feel pain and that there is a price to be paid. It has been set out generally, but they do not get it. Deputy Coveney does. Some other colleagues do but, generally, it comes across that they do not. I am not here to tell Deputy Coveney that his party has nothing to say, that I have not heard good suggestions from it. The opposite is the case. However, that is not said of other political parties in the House. It is not understood because they do not want to understand. The aim seems to be to, politically, do the guy opposite down because that is what we are here for. Actually, it is not. The public is looking for leadership and they see within the House certain people, across the political divide, who will provide that leadership and who have some sense of direction. I did not call for a national government because it is nonsense in the sense that it is not achievable with the political dynamic in the House. However, what can be achieved in the House is not that the Opposition would give the Government a chance but that it would feed in in some way — I respect what Deputy Coveney stated that perhaps it does not receive all of the figures — to finding the direction we are all trying to take because we are all here for the general good of the people we represent. That is all I would say to Deputy Coveney.

On the real business of the economy, I say this. In the banking sector it is time for a hard dose of reality. It is time for a reduction in salaries. It is time to call a halt to the almost immoral way in which they behaved. Some of the newspaper reports today would lead one to believe there was far more going on in the banks in terms of their culture than any of us knew. We need to look at this. We need to ensure that in every board of a bank or financial institution there is truth and transparency, that they are seen to address the issues and that those members of the board caught up in the old baggage go soon and much sooner than they expected. It is only in this way that they will show respect for the general public who are fed up hearing about what they were carrying on with in the past ten years that we did not know about.

On some of the stuff that we did know about, we are only now getting the opportunity to tell them that they were wrong and if they do not see this, they should not be part of the plan for the future. That is what I believe about the banking system. I say to the banks that in spite of their big advertisements in the newspapers about lending money to the SME sector and the fact that the Government is bailing them out, assisting and guaranteeing them, they are not doing microbusinesses or the SME sector any good, that they are not giving them money, that they are pretending they are open for business when they are not. Let us be honest about it, that is the position. I have enough hard evidence and real stories to inform me that when one goes to the bank for a loan to expand or save one's business, even when one has a viable business, that instead of getting the loan one requires so urgently, one walks back out with an entirely new package that costs more in terms of fees, charges and interest rates, and no loan. That cannot continue. We must say to the banks, loud and clear from this House, that it cannot continue because everyone has a role to play and that if taxpayers' money is associated with recapitalisation and the guarantee scheme, we expect much more than what the SME and microbusiness sector is getting from them. That must be said by every Minister and I hope it is understood by the Opposition and others involved here. I also hope the banks get the message, as otherwise we will be in real trouble.

I am from a school of thought that would like to see a property or asset bank established. They are talking about it in America. Let us do it here. Let us be ahead of the curve. Let us see what is happening.

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