Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)

Given the number of Ministers of State and Ministers, Ireland has one of the largest Governments in the EU while being one of the smallest states. When one takes those numbers and calculates the percentage of members of the Government compared to the number of Members of the Legislature, it is more than 20%. This is one of the largest percentages in the EU.

Deputies Hogan and Shatter have spoken about some of the roles performed by some of the Ministers of State. When I came into this House just under two years ago and participated in the committees, I was really surprised to learn that a chairman of a committee has an allowance of €20,000. This is an incredible amount of money for some chairmen who only chair two or three meetings. A vice-chairman gets €10,000 while convenors — I did not even know there were convenors — get €6,000 each. The public perception of politicians is that we are creaming it and in my view that is an unfair perception. However, as long as the Government chooses to do nothing about changing that perception, it will persist and it is a slur on the entire body politic.

I have spoken many times about reform of the public sector. I have always said that reform should be done with a scalpel and not with a lump hammer. What I mean by a lump hammer is the public sector pension levy because that is lump hammer economics. It is a case of, "Here you go, lads, a 7% decrease in your salary". I do not know what will happen on 7 April but perhaps the Ministers of State opposite know. However, it will be lump hammer economics again. It is a case of an increase in the standard and higher rates of income tax but without reform. The reason there is no reform is because there has been an entente between the Government, the management of all the public sector areas — the management are extremely well paid — and the public sector unions. The entente is obvious in the case of this proposal, unless the Government chooses to do something about it. There is no public sector union for Ministers of State so they are on their own. They will have to fight their own corner to stay in place.

The Taoiseach is the manager in this case; it is within his remit to decide that under the current circumstances, and because of the financial difficulties we face, the number of Ministers of State should be reduced. The only thing the public is looking for, and has been looking for since the budget last October, is fairness. Prior to the last budget, the Government's spin doctors put out the line that the people who earn more would be expected to pay more. However, this did not happen as we saw with the attack on the medical card for old age pensioners and the other very unfair aspects of that budget.

We do not need 20 Ministers of State; 12 would be enough. I think it was the former Taoiseach, the late Charlie Haughey, who started the practice during the leadership contest with George Colley. I was only a child at the time but, if I remember correctly, Mr. Haughey promised people he would make them Ministers of State if they supported him, and that happened. He created positions so that he could become Taoiseach. It is a power game and the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, knows that better than most.

How much time have I left, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle?

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