Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)

I move:

"—That Dáil Éireann:

recognising the unnecessary expansion of the numbers of Ministers of State in 2007;

mindful of the need to reform and upgrade the way that Government undertakes its work on behalf of the people; and

understanding the need for the Oireachtas and the Government to be seen to lead by example in the current economic crisis facing the country;

calls on the Government to:

reduce the number of Ministers of State by eight, from twenty to twelve; and

reduce the ministerial staff allocated to work on constituency matters to two per Minister."

I wish to share time with Deputies Shatter, Clune and D'Arcy.

Following the 2007 general election, the then Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, decided to provide a few additional posts of responsibility as Ministers of State and committee chairmen to members of his party. People were mindful that this had happened previously but, nevertheless, the economic climate warranted political leadership in making the Oireachtas more cost effective and effective in parliamentary terms. This is about saving taxpayers' money and making Ireland competitive in order that people can keep their jobs. It is about fairness in order that the matters about which the House must come to conclusions in the next few weeks can be seen to be taken in the context of fairness by public representatives.

In 2007, the number of Ministers of State was increased from 17 to 20 but nobody could understand the gaping hole in policy by which the increase was justified nor could anybody see the justification for additional committees and posts of responsibility because sufficient committees were appointed to do the same volume of work in the previous Dáil. Why did the then Taoiseach do that with the approval of the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen? The only conclusion one can come to is he had to appease the unease in his parliamentary party to ensure members had posts of responsibility and were working hard on behalf of the people and, therefore, were not too concerned about the deterioration in the nation's finances and increasing unemployment.

The three newly appointed Ministers of State were scattered throughout various Departments. For example, at a time when the Health Service Executive is not even accountable to the House, the Department of Health and Children has four Ministers of State, one with responsibility for children and youth affairs, another with responsibility for health promotion and food safety, another with responsibility for older people and the fourth with responsibility for equality, disability and mental health. It is difficult to justify four Ministers of State for a Department that has abdicated responsibility and for which the Minister is not accountable to the House for the bulk of its budget. It is reasonable to ask what the Ministers of State do.

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has three Ministers of State with another Minister of State who deals with issues cutting across multiple Departments. Four Ministers are, therefore, in the House for Question Time dealing with labour affairs, trade and commerce and science, technology and innovation. The roles and responsibilities of some of the Ministers of State in these areas are justified but not to the extent provided for in this Dáil.

Fine Gael wants to know whether we need the current number of Ministers of State and whether the number can be reduced to ensure effective administration. Currently, responsibilities allocated to such Ministers are ineffective and unnecessary. The junior Ministers are entitled to their salaries but their offices cost a significant sum when support staff are taken into account. Senior Ministers have 33 staff assigned to them to deal with constituency work while the number assigned to Ministers of State is 85. Whey would a Minister of State require additional posts of responsibility for people to do constituency work when senior Ministers, who receive more correspondence, including from their parliamentary colleagues, require only 33 officials to address constituency business?

The cost of the staff of senior Ministers is €3.616 million while the cost of the staff of Ministers of State is €8.2 million. That requires examination. Fine Gael believes the average cost of the office of a Minister of State is €750,000 annually but only 12, not 20, Ministers of State are required. Each Department does not need a Minister of State assigned to it. Given the responsibilities of Ministers and the busy lives they lead, cover must be provided at various events and functions and for departmental and parliamentary responsibilities. Delegating responsibilities to a Minister of State is essential if we want to ensure the Cabinet system works effectively and well on behalf of the country.

I concede a Government Chief Whip is needed to ensure the parliamentary affairs of the State are overseen. A Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs is required given the large number of meetings on European issues. However, I am not sure Ministers of State with responsibility for lifelong learning and the Information Society are needed. Other people could cover these areas over a cup of coffee judging by the throughput we have witnessed. What does "local services" mean in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government? Rationalisation is easy to accomplish in the Department of Health and Children which has four Ministers of State who have no responsibility for the largest budget in the State. This is given to the HSE, which is not even accountable to the House.

The motion is intended as a catalyst to discuss the various issues in which the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has been interested since Christmas. He has been talking out loud about the need for parliamentary reform and the way the political class must show leadership on this matter. Three weeks ago, he stated, "It is now time for all of the political parties in Dáil Éireann to play their part. They need to lead by example and show those people currently feeling the pain that the political class will play its part". That is a noble statement by a Minister whose party is a partner in government with Fianna Fáil. I am sure he has influence over decisions made at the Cabinet table. Why is he in government otherwise?

The Minister could at any time decide to make this a major issue but he has chosen not to do so to date. All we have from him is rhetoric with no indication that he is serious about electoral reform because he has not even set up the electoral commission, which was promised in the programme for Government in 2007. We are on the verge of local and European elections. We were told an electoral commission would be in place to oversee them as a trial run before the next general election but there is no sign of any change. The Electoral (Amendment) Bill before the House is the epitome of the failure of the Minister to initiate and implement a programme of electoral reform. The net point of the legislation is how many days are required before posters can be erected prior to polling day.

If that is the best that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, can do I would not like to see the end result in the White Paper on local government reform. This was promised for before the end of 2008 but we have not yet seen it although we are on the verge of European and local elections. Those who will be elected to local government on 5 June do not know in advance what the Minister has in mind and have no programme of legislation or policy devolved to local government that will give them any meaningful involvement in the affairs of their communities. It is business as usual, as the Taoiseach said recently about the economy and Anglo Irish Bank. It is business as usual too for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley. We will hear a great deal but will see no action on his genuine concerns about reforming this House, having a leaner and more effective administration and devolving real power to communities through their local government system, in the form of a White Paper on local government. I look forward to the proposals but I do not think I will see much meat on them between now and 5 June.

Tonight's Fine Gael motion gives the Minister, Deputy Gormley, and others like him, an opportunity to reflect on their rhetoric and take action tomorrow night by voting with the Opposition on some of our proposals. It is not a comprehensive package of electoral reform but a small item that will make a meaningful contribution to showing the public that we are serious about becoming more effective and making Departments leaner for the times we are in.

I was heartened to see that many staff are allocated in various ways in Departments but I know now why Ministers and Ministers of State have been so busy doing constituency work since Christmas. They have enormous resources and contributions that people on this side of the House would love to have. We do a reasonable job with a parliamentary assistant and a secretarial assistant. Why not let everyone have the same resources to look after their constituencies? They would do it effectively and well. There is no reason that any Ministers or Ministers of State who have significant backup, apart from constituency office staff in their Departments, cannot do their personal constituency work with two people in their constituency offices. That is a reasonable suggestion, instead of Ministers of State having an average of eight staff doing their constituency office work. Ministers of State have a total staff of 189, at an annual cost of €8.24 million, while Ministers have a staff of 78 at a cost of €3.6 million. If an bord snip nua examines how this House does its business, those proposals speak for themselves in favour of rationalisation.

We have heard too many promises from this and previous Governments about the need to carry out parliamentary reform. Deputies Stagg and Stanton, and others, have been to the fore in contributing to that debate but it is up to the Government to bring forward proposals to make this Chamber represent the electorate more effectively. Some of its procedures are so archaic and out of date that reform is urgently needed. People demand and expect this of us.

The Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Carey, has a legitimate and genuine interest in how this House conducts its business. In his response to this motion he might flesh out how we can have meaningful Dáil reform, with accountability from quangos, some of which we do not need, and from Ministers of State in terms of the effectiveness of their responsibilities in these financial circumstances, and also what committees we need.

Committees are necessary to shadow the Departments. I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which sat today for 90 minutes to discuss the social housing programme. We could not spend that much time in plenary session here doing such detailed work. Committees are important but we do not need all of them. After the last general election many were established for political convenience rather than for the work they might do.

While some people need remuneration for their work, Members of this House can take their responsibilities seriously by being chairmen, vice-chairmen or convenors of committees without remuneration. It is a great honour and privilege to represent one's constituency here and to be asked to take on such a responsibility by the Houses of the Oireachtas and one's party. People would look forward to that additional responsibility and to getting stuck into work they would not have the opportunity to do as an ordinary Deputy.

I suggest that there is an opportunity to have a meaningful debate about how we do our business, the number of people we need to do it and how we can be a more effective Parliament and Government. We do not need as many Ministers of State. Government Members, particularly those in the Green Party, will have the opportunity to vote with the Opposition tomorrow night in favour of reducing the Ministers of State from 20 to 12, and the number of ministerial constituency office staff to two. That would be a start in showing whether they are genuine about meeting the objectives about which we have recently heard so much rhetoric from the Minister, Deputy Gormley.

See this speech in context