Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)

I could see many of them change their minds at their doors when I knocked on them. The 60 days give people an opportunity to interact with the electorate, and many people make up their minds in that period. Before that period, many people have no interest in local, European or national elections. I cannot see any of these limits causing problems. We certainly know of one Senator who spent a fortune on a local election and in an unsuccessful general election. He was very critical of donations in other respects and is causing much trouble for his own party at the moment. It is madness to spend that kind of money on an election. It may work if it is spent effectively, but if people see big billboards or big fancy advertisements in newspapers, they will wonder how the candidate can afford it or who is paying for it.

Sometimes it can be a disadvantage to have the most glossy posters and advertisements. I would advise many of my candidates that an ordinary word processor is enough to get the message across in a local election. The electorate will not be happy if large amounts of money are spent on glossy brochures, most of which they do not read anyway. They are more likely to read a more personal document, which inevitably costs less but usually requires more effort from the candidate. That is appreciated by the public.

Since 1999, election candidates were always required to declare their election expenditure, a requirement that was brought in by my colleague from County Meath, the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey. I prepared some of those forms for my father in a few elections. When we saw the returns of other candidates, we were quite surprised as we felt we were vastly outspent. When we listened to what people were saying they had spent and looked at what they spent, we were quite surprised that we were close to top of the list. Spot checks were made by SIPO, which took a strong interest in it. I am not sure if SIPO is involved in this aspect, as candidates must send their returns to the local authorities, but there should be checks to ensure that everybody is complying with the rules.

I predict that the vast majority of candidates would spend far less than the permitted limit, because they simply do not have the money now. Fundraising by politicians is more difficult at all levels. It will get more difficult following the proposals made by the Taoiseach, but he has challenged us to try to raise more through small donations. The current US President has succeeded in doing this effectively, although I am sure he got many large donations as well. In the US, corporations are banned from donating to politicians and political parties. I agree with that, because I do not see the value in allowing limited companies or plcs to participate in the democratic process. There is a role for the people involved in those companies, as business people should be involved in politics, but they should be donating the money themselves, or their employees should do so voluntarily. I do not see the point in allowing a company to take part in the democratic process. It is banned in the US federal system and it might be something worth examining here.

I do not have any urban councils in my constituency, but I am familiar with Drogheda Borough Council, in which about 400 voters used to vote in the Meath East constituency, something that is no longer the case thanks to the Constituency Commission. I am also very familiar with Navan Town Council. Although I do not wish to discuss individuals, my father is standing for election in one local electoral area and a different borough council area. The one quarter limit will hit him hard, but I am unsure if he would spend it in any case. However, even if he were to be able to spend it, there is only a very small crossover between the area of Drogheda east in the county council and Drogheda south in the borough council. Less than 10% of voters in the borough district and probably a good deal less again in the county council district is at issue, proving there will be anomalies.

However, it is reasonable that a reduction in the limit is proposed for candidates standing in both districts as usually there is a large cross-over. Any candidate standing in the Navan Town Council and the Navan County Council elections is located within the Naval local electoral area. All of the Kells Town Council area is within the Kells electoral area. There are some anomalies throughout the country and I do not know what it is possible to do in that regard. However, if someone wishes to spend a good deal of money running in such a constituency where there is only a small crossover the proposed legislation may be unjust.

Candidates such as my father and others would be entitled to spend one quarter of the €7,500 limit in the borough council election, a substantial amount of money totalling just less than €2,000. I do not know of any candidate in the elections who will spend more than that amount. It would be madness to do so. It is possible to have leaflets printed up very effectively and cheaply. Many people do not put up posters for local elections and believe they are at a disadvantage. Is there an argument for banning posters from local elections? There may be but that would be undemocratic.

While I have been mildly critical of the high level of the spending limits, it is clear the Minister has researched the matter thoroughly with the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and there is a rationale for those limits. I am pleased about that and I am pleased he has engaged in consultation with the committee and with Members of the House. In the short time available it may not be possible to examine the matter in detail at this stage. If people spend such amounts during an election, the matter should be examined later.

There is an argument that sitting councillors have a significant advantage over newcomers, but that depends to which party such people are connected, especially this year. If limits are too low there is a disadvantage to newcomers. I cannot foresee anyone standing for a borough council or town council election spending €7,500, although perhaps I will eat my words after the election. The Minister would have examined the figures in this regard.

I refer to posters and I speak as someone who was fined, wrongly I suggest, by Meath County Council. I accepted my punishment for having posters up too early. As the Minister makes clear, there is no legislation covering when posters may go up or when a candidate may start to put them up. The €100 fine I received could have been challenged in court, but I was not going to waste the court's time on that issue. It has more important things to do. The Minister has made it clear that the legislation is silent on this aspect.

It is probably correct to have a start date. However, if people are active early with a limited number of appropriate, effective posters it does impress the electorate and suggests that such candidates are on the ball and willing to fight hard for the seat. Perhaps we are creating an even playing field for candidates who are not as effective. However, I suppose it causes some annoyance.

I was glad when my posters became an issue of controversy during the election, because there was a complaint from a party on the opposite side of the House. It gave me a good deal of national coverage at the time on the radio and in newspapers. There was a photograph of my posters in the Irish Independent and it is not possible to buy such publicity, which was not counted as part of the election spend, and I was very pleased about that. It would have cost me a good deal of money to put an advertisement in the Irish Independent and I thank the parties opposite for that. It has been made clear by the Minister that hitherto, people putting up posters were not in breach of any legislation. The legislation was silent on the matter and the Minister is changing that now.

Some people put up posters advertising public meetings. However, those rules are broken from time to time because the rules on such posters provide that they must definitively advertise a particular meeting. Sometimes people put up their normal election posters and place the smaller poster for the public meeting on top of the original poster. I wonder if that is acceptable. Perhaps the Minister should examine this matter.

I am pleased the Minister is clearing up the Litter Pollution Act because upon examination I realised the original legislation is poorly drafted. It is very unclear regarding what is permitted. The only clear matter arising from that legislation concerning posters was the seven day rule following an election. All of us aim to comply with that, because the last thing people wish to see is posters remaining up. However, most Members will have experienced the problem of people stealing posters during the election and putting them back up after the seven day period is past.

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