Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)

It is "popular". There is a place in every country for popular feeling, particularly when we are listening to the representative of the government which has driven the economy into a ditch.

I recall all last summer another scientifically based report on which the Taoiseach ducked, dived and weaved for six or seven long months, namely, the report on the remuneration of higher paid public servants, including the Taoiseach and senior politicians who were Cabinet members. The consequence of this scientifically based report on remuneration for top people has been that we now have the highest paid President in the world and the Taoiseach is certainly the highest paid leader in the European Union and earns far more than the President of the United States. We also have a Governor of the Central Bank who earns more than the Governor of the European Central Bank. If we are returning to planet reality, what are these scientific assessments of top people's salaries?

I heard the Minister of State responsible for labour affairs on RTE two weeks ago giving a very scientific comment on the salaries of people on the bottom of the scale, when he clearly suggested the minimum wage was up for consideration as being unaffordable in the context of our current economic situation. Yet, the Minister for Finance can come in here and say what he has just said. We have actually been too soft with Fianna Fáil and with this Government, which has driven the economy to ruin. It should get out now and follow Cromwell's dictum — in the name of God, go.

There is a lengthy article in The New York Times of last Saturday which is most interesting. There is a widespread movement in the United States which has a great deal of merit, which is to look for a clawback from senior bankers in regard to the compensation they took, particularly in recent years when they drove the bond markets, stock markets and, in particular, bank shares to ever more dizzying heights, and took their compensation accordingly. While I am sure they will do so in due course, I do not know if anyone has done an analysis of the compensation packages of top bankers over the past five to ten years. However, from newspaper reports, it would appear the chief executive and chairperson of Anglo Irish Bank would in salary and compensation have earned somewhere in the region of €20 million in addition to pension contributions. We must remember that even under the revised guidelines for top people's pensions in the private sector, it is possible now to accumulate a pension fund of more than €5 million and to have 20%, or €1 million of that paid out tax free from the pension fund of these retiring bankers. Moreover, it is a safe bet to assume their pension funds are in the many millions of euros.

I am utterly shocked by the notion the Minister would tell the House that because the net assets of the balance sheets are large, a scientific method of assessing salary is appropriate. The assets of the balance sheet are large but what we are discussing today is putting in €7 billion because many of those assets have turned out to be fool's gold in terms of loans on property and construction. In this regard, Allied Irish Banks said on Monday that the likely losses over the next couple of years may be contained, it hopes, around the €8 billion mark. Two weeks ago, Bank of Ireland said it hoped its level of likely losses over the next two to three years can be contained around the €6 billion mark. If there was any logic, not only would not make the soft offering of keeping the bankers' salaries at the level of Ministers' pay, we would look for a clawback in regard to their pension funds and in regard to the money that was paid to them and helped them to indulge in utterly reckless behaviour.

Clearly, the Minister has the report. I am disappointed he was not able to share the contents of this scientific study. Does he think science is beyond us? I did not do science in school because I did not have an opportunity but I could learn pretty quickly if he would offer me this scientific report. I simply do not understand this, particularly when I saw the Fianna Fáil delegates cheering to the echo proposals that Fianna Fáil would get tough on bankers. Perhaps when Fianna Fáil is out in Citywest, it is talking to more ordinary people, the kind of people who support Fianna Fáil up and down the country, most of whom have the best interests of the country at heart. However, when it comes to dealing with the bankers, Fianna Fáil has another set of criteria and it is then scientific. This is like George Bernard Shaw with regard to scientific socialism. We now have scientific capitalism from this Minister to determine bankers' pay.

I remind the Minister that we are now a byword throughout the European Union and the world for extraordinarily excessive payments to top people in both our public service — Ministers, the President and the Taoiseach — and our banks. Part of the recovery of our reputation will be to say "that was then, this is now" and that we have reined in these types of payments. If this scientific report is to compare salaries with other similar companies, what exactly does that mean? The average remuneration for top executives in publicly quoted companies in Ireland has drifted further and further above the €1 million to €2 million mark. When one takes into account the pension contributions which attract tax relief and which are very special arrangements — it is not like the civil servants having to pay 6% in pension levies — where they can accumulate up to €5 million and distribute €1 million of that tax free, we are being offered a suggestion that there is a scientific methodolgy in all of this. I want the Minister to re-think this matter.

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